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Mellybeans 01-23-2019 01:48 PM

Undigested seed
 
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Health-wise, everything with Parker has been fine up until now. I was a little worried about the possibility that she could also get sick with whatever Quinn had (we never did find out the root cause - antibiotics did not help).

This morning I cleaned her cage, gave her fresh seed and pellets, and a bit of apple. I went back in the room to remove the apple pieces from her cage, and noticed that her droppings are green, and have whole undigested seeds in them. Could the apple be the cause of such a problem?

Cody 01-23-2019 04:25 PM

I doubt if the apple has anything to do with the whole seed in the droppings, it is however a cause for concern. I would take the bird to the vet and show them the dropping with the whole seed and have them test for AGY, avian gastric yeast. AGY is one thing that can cause a bird to have whole seed in the droppings, it is not helped by an antibiotic, there are very specific meds to be used to treat it and the sooner you can find out if that is the cause the better.

Mellybeans 01-23-2019 07:10 PM

This is what I was afraid I might hear.

As it turns out, despite being called an "Animal and Bird Hospital", the vet Quinn was seen by turned out to not be an avian vet. Seems we don't have any near here.

I'm calling around now to see if I can find a clinic that at least can do proper tests to determine what is going on (they weren't suggested last time).

Is AGY treatable at least? Can birds have it for some time before it causes these kinds of problems? What causes it?

I don't know why I'm having such terrible luck... I've been keeping Parker's cage very clean, giving her all the right foods, washing my hands before I do anything in her cage. Everything was good up until today. I opened the garbage bag to look at yesterdays cage papers, and they look normal, minus one possible seed in one dropping.

Cody 01-23-2019 09:16 PM

AGY is treatable when caught soon, it is actually a yeast and not a bacteria so that is why antibiotics are not effective, however sometimes a secondary infection is present with the AGY and an antibiotic will be used for that. The med most commonly used to my knowledge to treat an active infection of AGY is Amphotericin B. The vet can do a fecal test and see the organism in the droppings if it is being shed in them, it is not always shed so just because the organism is not seen does not mean it is not there. A bird can have the infection and not show signs, so if signs appear it can be difficult to determine how it was contracted. It can be passed from parents to chicks if the parents are infected.
There are other things that can cause a bird to pass seeds in the droppings and that is why it is important to have the bird seen by an avian vet or at least one that routinely treats birds. Do you have any exotic vets near you, they will sometimes have a vet on staff that is well versed in treating birds. Is Parker showing any signs of not feeling well, such as sleeping more, lethargic, depressed appetite, or vomiting? Keep watching the droppings to see what percentage of them show the undigested seed.

philw 01-23-2019 10:11 PM

Apple itself is fine but I had an experience quite a few years ago when breeding canaries.
I had about a dozen young birds that were about two months old and in their own large cage and along with their seed, I had given them an apple as a treat that I just quartered by cutting.
They really seemed to enjoy it but returning a few hours later, found half of them dead.
I checked with my vet and found out that apple seeds contains a chemical that when digested it's converted into a very toxic cyanide compound.
The chemical is in the apple seed and just a slice or piece normally would not be a problem but in my case some of the seeds were there in the core of the whole apple. Just a warning on apple seeds. Apple flesh is fine. I'd just keep an eye on the droppings without any new foods. Sometimes very different foods can cause dropping changes.
Were these regurged seeds?

Mellybeans 01-23-2019 10:22 PM

Cody - Can the symptoms be different depending on the bird?

Quinn started showing illness when I noticed she was coughing one day. By the next day she was wheezing and tail bobbing. I took her to the first vet and he said she had a lot of mucus in her airways. He figured crop infection because of a food change and the possibility that Quinn didn't eat for a few days, causing a slow down in digestion. Hence the possibility of the crop infection.

Parker on the other hand only started really showing a noticeable difference in her droppings today. No coughing/wheezing. I've now noticed a little tail bobbing. No vomiting, or excessive fatigue, but despite being very hungry this morning, it seems like she hasn't been eating as much throughout the day. There haven't been a whole lot of droppings today, but I'd say 100% have whole seeds in them.

I think I've found a vet that is experienced enough to do tests to determine what might be going on. It's just a matter of figuring out how to pay for it. Vet care for two sick birds, plus all the costs of startup (food, flight cage, perches, toys, etc), all in one month, is hard to handle to be honest. I don't think anyone expects a hit like this.

Mellybeans 01-23-2019 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philw (Post 4104418)
Apple itself is fine but I had an experience quite a few years ago when breeding canaries.
I had about a dozen young birds that were about two months old and in their own large cage and along with their seed, I had given them an apple as a treat that I just quartered by cutting.
They really seemed to enjoy it but returning a few hours later, found half of them dead.
I checked with my vet and found out that apple seeds contains a chemical that when digested it's converted into a very toxic cyanide compound.
The chemical is in the apple seed and just a slice or piece normally would not be a problem but in my case some of the seeds were there in the core of the whole apple. Just a warning on apple seeds. Apple flesh is fine. I'd just keep an eye on the droppings without any new foods. Sometimes very different foods can cause dropping changes.
Were these regurged seeds?

Oh gosh, that's terrible!

No, these aren't regurgitated - it looks like millet seeds, and it is definitely in the droppings.

The apple was organic, properly cleaned, peeled, and no seeds. I cut it up in to smaller pieces, and put them on a paper plate. The paper plate was some kind of eco paper - not bleached or with any kind of dyes.

I'll see what things look like by the morning. She's up in her swing for the night, so all the droppings should be on the paper below, and I'll have an idea if the amount is normal, or if the undigested seeds are still there.

FaeryBee 01-23-2019 10:37 PM

Please don't panic if Parker does have AGY.
There are treatments that are effective.
It's good that you are getting her into the vet for the proper diagnosis and treatment plan right away. :hug:

I highly recommend the Sodium Benzoate Treatment and even use it with my budgies periodically as a preventative measure.

Sodium Benzoate for AGY

Spangled Lady 01-24-2019 10:36 AM

In the past I have lost a budgie to AGY. I was fairly new to budgies so I did not recognize the symptoms early enough which mostly was head bobbing and vomiting. He was on quite a few different medications for 2 month with no effect at all. He entered into the "wasting" part of the disease process. The bird still eats but the nutrients are no longer absorbed and malnutrition sets in.

My male budgie Murphy (current) began to open and close his jaw often so off to the vet for gram stains. Sure enough he has yeast in crop. He started on Amphotericin B right away for 10 days and it eradicated the yeast.

I believe my birds got the yeast from eating fresh corn on the cob. This is my own theory so please don't think it is medical advice. We know each corn kernel has an outer shell which is not only difficult for humans to digest it is the same way for small birds. The shell may remain in the crop longer than necessary before passing to the gizzard. In some cases it can be the bird will remove the heart of the corn kernel before eating it and spitting out the outer shell. However, I did not notice any sort of outer shell after they ate corn. Could it be that the shell of the kernel, while in the crop, develops yeast? I discussed this with my avian vet and he thinks its a strong possibility. Since I stopped feeding fresh corn there has been no signs of AGY in my birds. I also give them ACV once per month for a few days in their water. If your bird has an early case of AGY you stand a good chance of getting rid of the yeast. Try not to feed any food with sugar or honey because yeast cells can thrive in a sugary environment.

Best of luck.

Cody 01-24-2019 12:08 PM

Symptoms can be different from bird to bird much depends on the severity of the infection and the birds immune system. Am I correct that Quinn and Parker came from your mom, if so, did she breed, and these were the offspring, or did she obtain them elsewhere? I ask because if she has the parents it would be a good idea to have them checked by a vet as both Quinn and now Parker are ill. If you don't see a normal amount of droppings that would indicate that he is not eating much, do you have a gram scale that you could use to weigh him, if a bird is ill it is good to keep track of the weight daily, if an ill bird cannot maintain its weight then the vet may need to hospitalize it in order to tube feed at some point.


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