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Go Back   Talk Budgies Forums > Budgie Talk > Budgie Breeding > Mutations and Genetics


Mutations and Genetics Learn about budgie genetics and the wide variety of mutations.
Thread Description:well try to any way!

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  #1  
Old 04-28-2008, 09:32 PM
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Default I am going to breed a red budgie...

I have decided, I am going to try to breed a red budgie. I know it sounds crazy, but its possible, and I will do it even if it takes a life time. orange budgies are possible, why not a red one. I am going to study birds feathers that have red pigment, and compare it to budgies feathers and through selective breeding am going to try to do this. I was reading on the budgerigar breeders club forums and have been in a way inspired to do this. if you read through this thread and this other site, you will see why it is so intersting. Believe me, after I commit to this task, my life is going to be strictly study. I have always been intrigued by science and genetics, and my love for history will also help. I will be spending TONS of time researching here on TB and all over the web. This is going to be extremely hard. even if I do breed a red budgie, It will have to remain a complete secret and no one except me is going to be able to know about it until I can prove it happend naturaly and am still going to have to keep the location a complete secret, so if I don't tell you (if I do get one) please don't get mad!

https://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/...hp/t19192.html

https://www.bourkes-parakeet.nl/pg/comparing-rub-op.html


Last edited by prettybird1212; 04-28-2008 at 10:31 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-28-2008, 09:43 PM
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a bourke is a totally different bird...

From the dates of the original birds, it makes me thing it was a "genetic" foul up and has probably died out 50 years ago. And there really is no proof of them existing to begin with, so i doubt its even true.
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:57 PM
 
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LOL...umm....I guess all there is to say is best of luck with that endeavour
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Old 04-28-2008, 10:04 PM
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yes I know the bourke is a different bird, BUT, the article is talking about melanin and eumalin at the end of the article in budgies. AND Im going to try to bring this mutation back if I can. basically, I have to reduce the melanin and increase the eumalin and Ill either end up w/ a yellow budgie or a red budgie.

by decreasing the melanin, I would be decreasing black and brown pigments. by increasing eumalin im increasing yellow and red pigments. For instance, when you look through red sunglasses, you see everything red because it is filtering all the pigments except the red or yellow ones. well if you view a budgie through red cellophane, you are filtering all the pigments except red and yellow. so, the budgie with the most red or yellow pigment would look the most vibrant when viewed through the red cellophane. therefore, you would try to get a bird with as much eumalin as possible and mate it to another selected bird, to try to reduce all other pigmentations except eumalin, for instance, a lutino, and a violet, would have much eumalin pigmentation, therefore, decreasing the melanin, getting closer to my goal of a red budgie.

this is my theory from the research i did today, and if you think about it it makes sense. so through selective breeding I may be able to produce a red budgie.

Please don't think im crazy, because this makes sense and all I want is a red budgie. Heck, an orange budgie is extremely close to a red one, so why not a red one?

Last edited by prettybird1212; 04-28-2008 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 04-28-2008, 10:15 PM
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here is the part of the article Im talking about-

Auber (1941) was researching the varieties of the Budgerigar. His point of view was strictly based upon morphology of the feathers. He studied the opaline Budgerigar also. He found that there are two changes caused by the mutation factor. First is the change of the cortex of the feather barbs. (see picture 1). The cortex becomes smaller. Second is the altered distribution of the melanin granules. The melanin disappears in the cortex. The amount of melanin in the medulla is increasing. The effect on the plumage is that the characteristic black striping of the feathers of the Budgerigar on the head, the hind neck and the saddle (between the shoulders) is gone. The original black colour of the stipes is replaced by the colour of the body. The empty space can can be filled up by yellow pigment. The Bourke's parrot has a camouflage structure also. When the foreground melanin is missing in the cortex, this empty space can be filled up by red or yellow pigment.

Auber found that the eumelanin pigment in the altered situation is situated around the vacuoles in the medulla of the feather barb. His conclusion was, in the opaline variety we see an altered distribution of the melanin on the micro level and and a change of the form of the cortex


The hypothesis that the distribution factor of the opaline variety should cause the increase of the red pigment. This cannot be true. It is a melanin distribution factor, not a psittacine factor. There is no scientific evidence for the hypothesis. The loss of the eumelanin pigment in the cortex forms the possibility for the extension of psittacine pigment. This can be red pigment, but yellow pigment also.

The process of formation the psittacine pigments is totally different than the formation of melanin. Also the distribution is a different process.In nearly all mutations that cause a loss of melanin in some feather fields, like recessive pied, edged, opaline, lutino and rubino Bourke's the red and yellow pigments can increase by selection. There are also other distribution factors on the macro level. The recessive pied variety is caused by a shortage of melanin production cells. Some featherfields, feathers or part of feathers don't have melanin.

By selective breeding the amount of melanin in the whole plumage is decreased also. The psittacine pigments can be increased by selection. Every breeder who followed the development of the opaline Turquoise Parrot, the opaline Bourke's Parrot from 1968 resp.1972 and the edged Bourke in the last thirty years can confirm that the melanin slowly decreased in the plumage by breeding this varieties. The effect of this mutation factors formed a condition for selective breeding of the psittacine pigments. I understand that breeders, who are since the last years were confronted by a well developed opaline variety can think that the whole extension and intensivation of the psittacine pigments is caused by this mutationfactor. But I know by experience that this isn't true. Auber showed that this distribution plays a role on the micro level. Extension of this concept to the macro level is inadequate. It negect the role of selection of the psittacine pigments.


here is an explantation from those forums-

OK, I will explain my answer................. Very long explanation ensues...............

It has happened before, it can happen again. The answer is yes.

The colour that we perceive an object to be is our visual perception of the wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation we call visible light that are reflected back to us from the object.
If only one wavelength is reflected, that is the colour we perceive. If a multitude of wavelengths are reflected we see a "colour" that is the combination/interaction of those wavelengths - example: white light is the combination of all the wavelengths of the spectrum of visible light - red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet.

Trees appear green to us because we perceive the chlorophyll pigment that absorbs other wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation but reflects visible green wavelength of light. Trees use the other wavelengths to power photosynthesis. Absorbed light can convert to heat - eg we see an object as black if it absorbs light - and in absorbing light that is converted to heat it becomes hotter - black cars are hotter... literally! White and yellow cars reflect light and are cooler!
Notice how things look different colours under different types of light, and if we are looking through different coloured lenses that filter out certain wavelengths of light - eg rose coloured glasses. Hence why lighting is such an important consideration in photography as it affects the colour of the images produced. Have a look at your budgies through different coloured pieces of cellophane (the cellophane is a filter for the wavelengths of light except the wavelength of colour it appears). If you look at your blue budgies in bright midday natural light through a piece of red or purple cellophane, you will clearly see which ones are carrying violet, they will look bright through the red cellophane by comparison to the ordinary blues. If you train your eye, you can also detect the green budgies that carry violet more easily by doing this.

The predominant light or combination of wavelengths that are emitted from the sun we perceive as yellow our main source of light, so it is natural that budgies (a desert bird in the sun lots) would have a yellow pigment to reflect excess light, so as not to heat up too much. (Aren't birds wonderful - equipped with features to survive both too much heat and too much cold). This yellow pigment is psittacofulvin or psittacin for short.

Birds can see colours that most people can't - they can see UV spectrum. This is important for breeding since Hens prefer males with fluorescent UV pigment reflecting feathers. See this website: https://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/200...ves/2002?p=821
Also people have varying degrees of colour perception - colour blindness etc.

So colour is the wavelength or combination of wavelengths of visible electromagnetic radiation that we perceive reflected back to us from an object, in this case a budgie.

Pink looking budgies already exist.
An orange looking budgie exists - have a look at Jorge DePina's (show breeder from Brazil) website you will see a picture of an orange looking budgie in his pictures of "unforgettable birds".
https://www.budgerigar-world.com/pina/default_I.htm

A violet budgie with red chest feathers is rumoured to have existed recently - I do not have any further information on who, whereabouts or if offspring have been produced - would suggest anyone who has red budgies would keep them under lock and key, and 24 hr security surveillance in a very safe secure location that no-one knows about, and not tell another living soul until ready to part with them!!!

The red budgie is a contentious issue. Some "authorities" on genetics do not believe that the red budgie is possible because budgies do not produce a red psittacofulvin/psittacin pigment - I am not an "authority" on genetics but I say bah! Bah to authority in general!!! Other parakeets produce red pigments, it is nature and anything is possible, and it has already happened before, therefore could again. However, whether such a mutation will occur again and be able to reproduce itself is speculative. But I firmly believe the red budgie will appear - either true or red-looking. Most likely red-looking. When, I can not say.

The "true" red budgie would be a specific mutation of the DNA that codes for the enzyme that produces the psittacin pigment. Such a mutation would have to change the enzyme such that it produces a pigment with structure that reflects predominantly red wavelength of visible light instead of yellow. Unlikely in the budgerigar, but not impossible considering other parrots have red pigments. Easily possible by artificial means if a genetic scientist could genetically engineer such a budgie by cutting and pasting the genes for red pigments from other parrots into the budgie genome, or directly messing around with the budgie genes - but lots of potentially bad consequences of messing with nature in this manner. I would rather be patient and wait for nature to do it just privately, because you just never know the unexpected consequences of stuffing it up - never know what other scourge might be created.

A red-looking budgie is most likely to be bred through violets since dispersion of light through a violet budgerigar of altered feather structure could cause us to perceive a red wavelength of light. An example of splitting or dispersing the wavelengths of light is the rainbow - where sunlight is dispersed into constituent wavelengths by passing through a mist of water droplets.

I believe this because in art - red and blue together make violet, violet where the blue is cancelled out leaves red.

Everyone has their own opinion on everything, but the first step to achieving something is believing it is possible, then asking how could it be possible, then taking action to make it possible.

The wonderful ability of nature is that DNA mutates all the time. This is grand design to assist adaptation and survival of a species in changing conditions.

Red budgies will appear...

Last edited by prettybird1212; 04-28-2008 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 04-29-2008, 11:45 AM
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JMO... mother nature made them this way for a reason, why mess with it? I'm not a fan of anyone playing god and changing things. just my 2 cents.
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Old 04-29-2008, 12:25 PM
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Good luck, you will be in good company! People have been trying to produce a red budgie for well over 100 years. There is a substantial award waiting in England with the Budgerigar Society for the first person to accomplish this task!
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Old 04-29-2008, 11:39 PM
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Oh cool, I wonder what it is? Im not EXACTLY changing anything. through selective breeding, maybe I can produce one. I have been browsing the web for possible pairs and so far have one pair type that may be able to at least produce a pink tinted one- a violet/cobalt and a suffused skyblue.
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Old 04-30-2008, 12:30 PM
 
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Mmm, Sorry, I doubt it can happen. The picture of the orange budgie looks like it's faked or the budgie is dyed. It isn't possible for budgies to produce these colours.

Last edited by keet_tweet4; 04-30-2008 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 04-30-2008, 08:22 PM
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Its not, its a really dark lutino called a hot something or other. But hey, Im just a kid. A kid hears something that hasn't been done, well, they try to do it. Its just our nature. I suppose you guys are just going to tell me it can't happen. I should have just not posted this thread to begin with. esp. since I knew what you guys were going to say.
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