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Go Back   Talk Budgies Forums > Budgie Talk > Budgie Breeding > Mutations and Genetics


Mutations and Genetics Learn about budgie genetics and the wide variety of mutations.

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Old 07-14-2015, 01:01 AM
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Default Ino and spangle masking question

I know mutations like ino and double factor spangle mask all other mutations, but if a budgie had both double factor ino and double factor spangle genes, which would mask which? What colour would the budgie's eyes be? Same with dark eyed clears.

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  #2  
Old 07-14-2015, 06:07 AM
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There is no double factor on Ino budgies, this mutation is not dominant and is sex linked. Only non visual males can carry a copy of the Ino gene in split form (the Ino gene is in this case masked). Females are always visual Inos and when breeding two full Ino budgies you will get Ino chicks, not double factored.
Spangle works in a different way since it's a dominant mutation and budgies cannot carry it in split form.

It's impossible for a bird to be both double factor spangle and visual Ino.
When we don't know the parentage of a double factor spangle (apart from both parents being at least spangles, that's a given), a dark eyed clear or an Ino budgie, the only sure way to find out the other mutations they could possibly be hiding would have to be through breeding these birds.
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Last edited by aluz; 07-14-2015 at 10:23 AM. Reason: Fixing spelling
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Old 07-14-2015, 11:17 AM
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I agree with Aluz, I'd also like to add that unless I'm mistaken, Ino is dominant to Double Factor spangle so the bird would be visually Ino in all cases.
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Old 07-14-2015, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aluz View Post
There is no double factor on Ino budgies, this mutation is not dominant and is sex linked. Only non visual males can carry a copy of the Ino gene in split form (the Ino gene is in this case masked). Females are always visual Inos and when breeding two full Ino budgies you will get Ino chicks, not double factored.
Spangle works in a different way since it's a dominant mutation and budgies cannot carry it in split form.

It's impossible for a bird to be both double factor spangle and visual Ino.
When we don't know the parentage of a double factor spangle (apart from both parents being at least spangles, that's a given), a dark eyed clear or an Ino budgie, the only sure way to find out the other mutations they could possibly be hiding would have to be through breeding these birds.
Males can be double factor ino - it just means they are visual ino because they have an ino gene on each Z chromosome. Yes, I know how both mutations work, I was trying to simplify.

Why do you think it is impossible for a budgie to be both DF spangle and ino? If you had two spangled birds, the female an ino masking SF spangle and the male a DF spangle split for ino, why would they not produce chicks with both mutations?
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Old 07-14-2015, 07:17 PM
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Simplify rule is that ino masks the effect of virtually all other mutations when present in heterozygous or homozygous form excluding cinnamon

Sometimes presence of a gene in heterozygous or homozygous form is not categorised as single or double factor for example X (normal green) Y (normal green) is called normal green
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Old 07-14-2015, 07:31 PM
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I would agree that you can have double factor Ino, but it is not the usual term used for recessive varieties. It would just be a male visual Ino, with double factor being a term used to describe dominant varieties.

I also beleive a bird can genetically be both df Spangle and visual Ino, there is not genetic reason for this not to happen that I can think of. However I think they would look visually Ino rather than df Spangle as the Ino gene removes all melanin which would leave the eyes red and the skin pink.

I imagine the same would happen with an Ino Dark Eyed Clear, don't ask me what a df Spangle dark Eyed Clear would look like though...
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Old 07-15-2015, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonic View Post
I would agree that you can have double factor Ino, but it is not the usual term used for recessive varieties. It would just be a male visual Ino, with double factor being a term used to describe dominant varieties.

I also beleive a bird can genetically be both df Spangle and visual Ino, there is not genetic reason for this not to happen that I can think of. However I think they would look visually Ino rather than df Spangle as the Ino gene removes all melanin which would leave the eyes red and the skin pink.

I imagine the same would happen with an Ino Dark Eyed Clear, don't ask me what a df Spangle dark Eyed Clear would look like though...
Thank you, this makes sense. I just meant it would have two ino alleles, I wasn't using proper terminology - but that's not the point of all this.
DF spangle also masks other mutations, as it is a leucistic mutation, but ino has stronger masking effects?
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Old 07-15-2015, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NerdyBirdy View Post
Thank you, this makes sense. I just meant it would have two ino alleles, I wasn't using proper terminology - but that's not the point of all this.
DF spangle also masks other mutations, as it is a leucistic mutation, but ino has stronger masking effects?
I don't know the exact action of each gene but would assume that as df Spangle only removes the colour from the feather (whilst leaving it in the eyes and skin etc) and Ino removes all colour then the mixture would appear like an Ino. I don't think the Spangle would somehow tell the Ino gene not to remove melanin from the eyes and skin. If that makes sense!
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