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Go Back   Talk Budgies Forums > Budgie Talk > Budgie Breeding > Mutations and Genetics


Mutations and Genetics Learn about budgie genetics and the wide variety of mutations.

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Old 03-25-2009, 02:56 PM
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Default Thoughts on mutations?

The dark blue and the dark green budgies both came from the same breeder, so I believe both to be violets. I know for a fact the dark blue hen is a violet as she has violet feathers. However, I have as yet know how to tell a violet green budgie from a dark green (one dark factor).


Male - Skyblue
Right Hen - Violet Skyblue
Left Hen - Violet Clearflight Pied Green
Center Hen - Dominant Pied Green



Male - Skyblue
Left Green Hen - Violet Clearflight Pied Green
Center Hen - Dominant Pied Green



Left Hen - Violet Clearflight Pied Green
Right Hen - Violet Skyblue Opaline Dutch Pied (or is she double factor dominant?)



I know the two blue hens displayed are violets due to violet feathers as mentioned... most notably in the tail feathers




And I know the white hen is not a recessive pied via her eyes




So do I have their mutations correct?


Last edited by Monica; 03-25-2009 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 03-25-2009, 02:58 PM
 
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Wish I could help you there, still learning, those in the know will be along shortly - I wanted to say that they are beautiful!
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Old 03-25-2009, 04:00 PM
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onw way to tell violets are from cheek patches as they are kinda purple/violet... rather than blue... but not so sure.. LOL...

and I donīt think a green can be violet... I could be wrong but I donīt think itīs possible...
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Old 03-25-2009, 04:06 PM
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Violet is always hard to tell in photos but I think you have most of the mutations right. I'm doubtful about the last one, she looks to me more like a combination of dominant pied and clearflight pied, I don't think that she is double factor dominant and she is certainly not a recessive. Clearflight pieds (& Dutch which are almost identical) can have very variable amounts of clear areas. You will probably have to breed from her to prove her mutation.

Because there are shade variations between birds that have the same dark factor most times test breeding to the only way to be sure if a green bird is carrying violet
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Old 03-25-2009, 04:08 PM
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Looks correct to me. Regarding your green 'violet', violet is hard to show on photos even in blue series birds, the only way to tell would be to breed that bird to a normal sky blue and hope that its split to blue. If it is violet, you will eventually get a violet skyblue or violet cobalt from the chicks.

Dutch pied = recessive pied. Same thing. As for the mutations, it is a violet skyblue dominant pied. Dominant pieds can have a great deal of variation in the clear feathers. Some have a tiny belly band and clear wings, some have a great deal and almost appear as double factor dominant pieds. If i was to bet on it i would say its single factor dominant pied.
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Old 03-25-2009, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huskymom View Post
onw way to tell violets are from cheek patches as they are kinda purple/violet... rather than blue... but not so sure.. LOL...

and I donīt think a green can be violet... I could be wrong but I donīt think itīs possible...
To me all the "cheek patches" appear to be a purpley blue, and if you mean the area behind their spots on teh side of the head right above the wing bend - if you mean that area is purply, well that's no guarantee either. However, I've noticed that both my violet blue hens have violet tail feathers, and non-violet blue hens *DO NOT* have violet blue tail feathers. I can try and get a comparison photo as I do have a non-violet blue hen.

Now as far as violet greens....
Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.birdhobbyist.com/parrotcolour/peter/violets01.html
A problem with this scenario is that Violet Light Greens look very much like Dark Greens and Violet Skyblues look very much like Cobalts and are easily confused. ---- I suspect that the Violet factor like the Dark factor originally arose from wild caught birds and that some of the wild caught “Dark Greens” were in actual fact Violet Light Greens.

The Violet Light Green is the Green series counterpart to the Violet Skyblue. If picking out Violet Skyblues is tricky then picking out the Violet Light Greens is even trickier. The variation in yellow ground colour from bird to bird is an additional variable that needs to be considered as one learns to recognise Violet Light Greens.
The website above actually tells how to visually tell if a dark green bird is a violet green or not, but it's kind of hard to tell for sure without another bird of the "opposite" mutation to compare with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nev90 View Post
Violet is always hard to tell in photos but I think you have most of the mutations right. I'm doubtful about the last one, she looks to me more like a combination of dominant pied and clearflight pied, I don't think that she is double factor dominant and she is certainly not a recessive. Clearflight pieds (& Dutch which are almost identical) can have very variable amounts of clear areas. You will probably have to breed from her to prove her mutation.

Because there are shade variations between birds that have the same dark factor most times test breeding to the only way to be sure if a green bird is carrying violet
That's true, she may be both dominant pieds...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Guthwulf View Post
Looks correct to me. Regarding your green 'violet', violet is hard to show on photos even in blue series birds, the only way to tell would be to breed that bird to a normal sky blue and hope that its split to blue. If it is violet, you will eventually get a violet skyblue or violet cobalt from the chicks.

Dutch pied = recessive pied. Same thing. As for the mutations, it is a violet skyblue dominant pied. Dominant pieds can have a great deal of variation in the clear feathers. Some have a tiny belly band and clear wings, some have a great deal and almost appear as double factor dominant pieds. If i was to bet on it i would say its single factor dominant pied.
It seems to me that Violet *BLUE* mutations are easy to figure out because they have violet tail feathers, as I have shown in the above pictures. However, non-violet blue mutations *DO NOT* have blue tail feathers. Therefore, it's rather simple to visually tell a violet blue from a non-violet blue, so long as the bird has some actual blue tail feathers. So, I will get those second photos for comparison!

Now as far as pied goes, I am in the understanding that there are 3 pied mutations. Two dominant, one recessive. As I understood it, Dutch was dominant, Danish was recessive. Then we've got the piebald/australianpied/bandedpied that is most commonly known as dominant pied. Do I have that mixed up?


Now as far as breeding, that is not something I'm going to do or try. I suppose you could say I am an "anti-breeder" as there are far too many birds in the USA that are being neglected, abused, and tossed out. The majority of the birds I have are rehomes.. And, not helping matters any, I'll be moving and I'll have to downsize the flock, which means having to find the budgies new homes.
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Old 03-25-2009, 09:23 PM
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Alright as far as violet blues go, perhaps this image shall help? Here's the blue hen (whom I know is a skyblue, but I think she may be a cobalt) next to a skyblue opaline dilute male....





And the image of her tail feathers, which I'm afraid isn't all that great (bad lighting) and her tail feathers turned out more teal than blue - if possible I'll try and replace with a better image.... Regardless of that, you can clearly see no violet as you can within the tail feathers of the two above hens.




Therefore, I find this a very reliable way of telling violet blues from non-violet blues.
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Old 03-26-2009, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guthwulf View Post
Dutch pied = recessive pied. Same thing.
It is the Danish pied that is the same thing as the recessive pied.

Some breeders claim that a Dutch pied and a clearflight pied (or Continental clearflight) is the same thing but others claim they are different. They are listed as separate mutations on the World Budgerigar Organisation's site. I can't see any difference between them

Dominant pied is the more common name for the Australian banded pied
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Old 03-26-2009, 07:03 AM
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ill be cheering you guys for ya'll to figure out!!
im not good at mutations but im trying to learn some..
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Old 03-26-2009, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nev90 View Post
It is the Danish pied that is the same thing as the recessive pied.

Some breeders claim that a Dutch pied and a clearflight pied (or Continental clearflight) is the same thing but others claim they are different. They are listed as separate mutations on the World Budgerigar Organisation's site. I can't see any difference between them

Dominant pied is the more common name for the Australian banded pied
As I had understood it, clearflight budgies have, well, clearflights. Some were bred with recessive? pieds to create a clearflight pied budgie that has more pied coloration. Thus heavier dominant pied budgies. *shrugs* Here's info I have received from someone else on the subject...

She does appear to display full black eyes. However, pale-irises develop gradually and in Budgies in particular ;

0 - 4 months of age : no irises
4 - 6 months of age : dark-grey irises
6 - 8 months of age : mid-grey irises
8 +++ of age : pale-grey irises

So her irises may become more obvious in the next few months if she is ADMpied (Danishpied aka Recessivepied aka Harlequin)

However, she appears to display a full clear tail and that could indicate the Piednape (aka Dutchpied in Budgies) and more precisely the Continental_Dutchpied mutation (which tends to be visually similar to ADMpieds in Budgies) The key indicator here will be the absence (ADMpieds) or presence (Dutchpieds) of pale-irises in adulthood.

--------------------------------------------------------------

For your info ; there are 3 Pied mutations amoung Budgies and so they can't be described as simply dominant & recessive pieds. And this because even though there is only 1 Recessivepied mutation amoung all Parrot species (the ADMpied aka Recessivepied gene) ; there is at least 2 distinct Dominant Pied genes throughout all Parrot species ;

Piebald : which is commonly known as either Australianpied or Bandedpied amoung Budgies.

Piednape : of which exist 2 types commonly known amoung Budgies as Clearflighted_Dutchpied & Continental_Dutchpied.




Something I've noticed about the two green pieds, which I'm not sure if it would be of any significance or not, (assume not as I know pied mutations vary) is that the dominant pied has a pied nape, as well as some pied markings on her tail feathers. Of the two long blue feathers that she has, one is yellow. The violet clearflight does not have any clear tail feathers, and actually has a little less pied spots than the dominant pied. I had read that a good clearflight specimen would have clear tails and a dominant pied would not display the pied nape.... and I'm also reading varying information on pieds... Such as ADMpied mixed with either dominant pied mutations creates the DEC, or that the ADMpied mixed with *ONLY* the Dutchpied varieties creates the DEC...


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budgerigar_colour_genetics



I've also noticed that my violet clearflight pied appears differently than the dominant pied, in a way that would suggest she is violet, as the violet blue has similar markings which are not seen on normal blues. I suppose the best way to describe it is that all three violet hens (most predominant on the violet skyblue and the violet clearflight pied) have "ribbing" - or more or less these little blue or green lines that highlight the feathers when looked at in the right light. They stripe the feathers, I suppose, horizontally.

Quote:
the breast and abdominal feathers have faint lateral striations resembling faint versions of the kind of markings found on the heads of Normals.
I haven't noticed that same effect on visual violets (birds, who without a doubt, have purple feathers!), however then again I haven't been around any for years now. And as far as the ribbing goes, well the articles say that cobalts have ribbing and violets don't... that violet skyblues have turquoise feathers like skyblue birds and cobalts have navy blue. But as seen in pictures, the violets who have the ribbing have purple tail feathers (except green isn't pictured as violet coloration does not appear on green) and the skyblue, has the turquiose feathers (which actually appear dark blue - not turquoise).



So as one can see, I am still confused on the subject. I think I have most of it straight, at least!

Last edited by Monica; 03-26-2009 at 09:04 AM.
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