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Go Back   Talk Budgies Forums > Budgie Talk > Budgie Breeding > Mutations and Genetics


Mutations and Genetics Learn about budgie genetics and the wide variety of mutations.
Thread Description:How does one go about creating one?

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  #1  
Old 07-15-2018, 03:10 PM
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Default Punnet Squares With Multiple Mutations

Hi all!

As some of you know, I get to study the genetics of budgies through 3 generations for my senior project. I will go into detail on all of this once I actually breed my chick from the F1 generation in a few weeks- I'll probably just put it in their breeding journal. However, part of the project is comparing the projected phenotype of the chicks (and genotype but can't determine that visually) with the actual outcome! I can use the genetic calculator til the cows come home, but since it's my project I think I ought to do a punnet square.

I've found lots of valuable information on this site https://www.budgie-info.com/budgie-genetics.html and can't wait to see how the plethora of variants interact with these two (co-dominant, gene linkage, dark factors, sex-linked traits, etc). It's so exciting because the two I'm breeding have such a variety that I have so much to study and talk about, but I'm not sure how to put it all into a punnet square. Should I break it up into separate squares to determine one variable at a time (i.e. base color, patterns, expression of sex-linked traits)? The problem with that is, I can determine what percentage of the chicks will express a certain variant, but then which of the chicks will express which variants together? (i.e. female chick can be cinnamon, but perhaps she's white based or yellow based or sf dominant pied or df dominant pied). I hope I'm not being too confusing. I'll add the mutations of the cock and the hen so that may help clear it up...

Echo (ZZ): Fullbody Greywing Cobalt SF Violet SF Dominant Pied/split for Recessive Pied, carrier of Cinnamon & Opaline
Charlie (ZW): Dark green opaline SF dominant pied, wild-type barring

I don't fully know Charlie's past, so she may be split for blue or ??? but won't know what she's all masking until I see the chicks. I will go back and make the punnet square after since I can't fully make one without knowing what Charlie's genotype is. I know it'll be a small pool since it'll only be one clutch of chicks, but hopefully, they'll reveal enough! I can predict to some level what the chicks will look like. For example, half their daughters should be cinnamon and half of all their chicks should be opaline. Like I said, I just don't know how to put it all together.

I want to contact a published, well-known source to cite on my project but I'm having a very difficult time finding one. I was wondering if any of you know of a good source? The few I've found haven't responded so I'm at a bit of a loss. And don't get me started on how no one seems to know how many chromosomes budgies have...I even contacted an avian vet and he didn't know! So anyway, any help is appreciated! (I may not be able to respond since I will be away from technology for a week but I'll see all your responses when I get back!)

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  #2  
Old 07-15-2018, 07:01 PM
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You actually have to make a Punnet square that's bigger than 4 squares. For example, if you're doing two mutations, the Punnet square will have 4^2 squares, or 16 squares.

I'm studying genetics in university and I'd be happy to explain it further to you! If you want, you can PM me and we can set up a Google Doc or something
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Old 07-20-2018, 03:29 AM
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Star is right, you would need to make what amounts to a gigantic Punnet square. where based on the genotypes of the parents, you would need to separate out into what gametes can actually be formed and then combine.

For example, say you had YyTt x Yytt
From the first one, you could get gametes that were YT, yT, Yt, or yt, which can combine with any of the from the second, Yt, Yt, yt, and yt from the second (duplicated because it makes the square much easier to complete).

It may be easier to do a separate square for any sex-linked traits.

Are there any genes that are linked in budgies that you know of, Star? Would be interesting to see if some "pair up" more than others...
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Old 07-20-2018, 09:56 AM
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I haven't heard of linkage between two or more visual mutations, that I know of, but there are plenty of genes that are linked, like Ino and weak vision.
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Old 07-23-2018, 11:53 AM
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Thanks you two! A gigantic punnet square....yup I was afraid of that! I was hoping there was some secret way, but looks like I'll just have to get to work forming a huge punnet square. My AP Bio teacher would be so proud...
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Old 07-24-2018, 04:43 AM
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Oh my Katie, this conversation is ringing a very faint bell from the distant past.
You thankfully seem to have some great sources of help here.

I’m not quite sure of the USA/UK equivalent education grades, but as a complete newbie to budgie genetics, yet someone who has long ago studied A level biology (UK age 18, step before university) and more recent previously assisted my children studying for the same; I would say, keep in mind the lack of knowledge outside of the ‘budgie circle’, remember to state what has become obvious to you and don’t make it more complicated than it needs to be.

It might be simpler to start off with individual punnet squares, and discuss how certain genes can visually alter the expression of others and the difficulties in sexing some young birds, before combining all your possible variables together in your giant punnet square.

If it all becomes a little too crazy with your multifactorial mix of a pair, then consider just picking out a few traits to track (can even choose these retrospectively for most interesting outcomes to discuss) - This could actually work quite well, making a less confusing read and also allowing you a reserve of information with which to ‘show off’ (with a few well prepared extending answers to likely questions ) demonstrating that during your research you have gained a lot of additional knowledge, and have a very solid understanding of your project.

Is the project presented to your peers? If it is, and they can ask questions, get together with a group of friends and make sure that a trusted friend is well prepared with a preplanned question that allows you to shine .

Best of luck Katie

Here’s hoping that romance will blossom
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Old 07-24-2018, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRS View Post
Oh my Katie, this conversation is ringing a very faint bell from the distant past.
You thankfully seem to have some great sources of help here.

I’m not quite sure of the USA/UK equivalent education grades, but as a complete newbie to budgie genetics, yet someone who has long ago studied A level biology (UK age 18, step before university) and more recent previously assisted my children studying for the same; I would say, keep in mind the lack of knowledge outside of the ‘budgie circle’, remember to state what has become obvious to you and don’t make it more complicated than it needs to be.

It might be simpler to start off with individual punnet squares, and discuss how certain genes can visually alter the expression of others and the difficulties in sexing some young birds, before combining all your possible variables together in your giant punnet square.

If it all becomes a little too crazy with your multifactorial mix of a pair, then consider just picking out a few traits to track (can even choose these retrospectively for most interesting outcomes to discuss) - This could actually work quite well, making a less confusing read and also allowing you a reserve of information with which to ‘show off’ (with a few well prepared extending answers to likely questions ) demonstrating that during your research you have gained a lot of additional knowledge, and have a very solid understanding of your project.

Is the project presented to your peers? If it is, and they can ask questions, get together with a group of friends and make sure that a trusted friend is well prepared with a preplanned question that allows you to shine .

Best of luck Katie

Here’s hoping that romance will blossom
Thank you that is great advice! I know I present in front of a panel of adult judges but peers are welcome...there may be questions but I'm not positive. I have an advisor who is a geneticist who is a great help! But I posted the question on here for the specific "budgie circle" you just mentioned
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  #8  
Old 08-01-2018, 04:45 AM
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As an aside, there are a number of linked mutation genes in budgies. At the basic level all the genes on each chromosome are linked to the others on the same chromosome. The only ones that seem to make much difference to the variteies are those on the X chromosome. The only time it has any effect is if two genes are close together and so tend to pass on together.

Ino and cinnamon are close so once you get them on the same chromosome they usually pass on together, which is why lacewings tend to produce more lacewings. Opaline and cinnamon are a bit further apart but opaline cinnamons tend to produce more of the same rather than chicks that are only opaline or only cinnamon.
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Old 08-01-2018, 11:52 AM
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Yep, Toni is right about lacewings, I can't believe I forgot that one

On the other hand, I didn't know cinnamon and opaline tended to go together!

That's interesting, Toni, thanks for adding that
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:08 AM
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You are welcome Starling! I believe the cross-over rate for opaline and cinnamon is about 30% (as against 3% for ino and cinnamon). So 60% of the time they pass on together if they are on the same chromosome.
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