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Color Question
So I know that in Budgie genetics green is dominant over blue, but I was wondering if blue is dominant over other colors such as if you have an all white bird?
Or would it be two recessive traits and hence you'd get a split bunch of colored babies? Genetics is my favorite subject in Biology, and I'm trying to get a handle on Budgie genetics! (I'm interested in breeding Budgies in maybe a year or two) So far I think I've read every sticky thread in the Breeding section so please don't just tell me to go read those, lol. Thanks guys! |
I'll try and explain it to you, hopefully I make sense. Things usually make perfect sense in my head but I can never get them across through writing or even words :o
So we have two base colors we differentiate them by green series budgies which have a yellow base color and blue series budgies that have a white base color. Each series has different dark factors which make the different shades you see such as olive green and skyblue. So basically we only have green budgies and blue budgies. Yellow is green and White is blue (don't know if that makes sense?) So yes, green is dominant over blue. To produce a white bird a mutation that removes color would be needed such as pied, or albino which would work the same way on a green budgie but making it yellow instead of white. I know you said you read the stickies, but have you read the one in my siggy? the one titled "Basic Color Expectations" I think it made a lot more sense when I wrote it on there! :p |
So what Budgie mutations would you have to breed together to get an all white or mostly white bird? (not necessarily Albino) Also, I don't think I completely understand pieds yet.
If you bred a blue bird with a white bird (non-albino white, can't remember exactly what it was called. Grey blue?) would you get split birds or would there be less blue on the offspring or? I'm pretty sure I read your sticky but I'll double check to be sure! ^_^ |
Sorry, double post.
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It's not so much blue and green as white and yellow. A blue bird is blue on white and a green bird is blue on yellow to make green. Lots of things can make a "clear" bird which is a bird that only has it's white or yellow base color. I have some dark eyed clears which combine recessive pied and clearflight pied to remove all the color. A double factor spangle is also all clear and then there is an actual albino gene. With the albino gene a solid white bird is called albino and a solid yellow lutino. The eye color and iris ring can tell you which gene or combination is causing you to have an all clear budgie.
Most of these mutations are recessive, except the clearflight pied, so both birds have to carry it. You will get clear birds or not clear birds. The color will not dilute any by mixing. It's just there or not there. In the case of dark eyed clears you could get some pied birds where they have some clear feathers (yellow or white feathers) and the other feathers will be the normal body color. With spangles 1 copy of the gene changes the markings on the bird and 2 copies (double factor) makes them clear. The colored feathers will be the same shade as they would have been without spangle or pied. A different set of genes determines the shade of the color. |
Ahhhh ok, that makes a bit more sense.
And Corina, your sticky makes sense to me for dark factor genes but for some reason my mind can't convert that to make sense with the yellow/white thing, lol. I think it'd make more sense if there was an example I could see with a punnett square in regards to making a bird have just their base color. :| I'm definitely a visual learner! |
Ok, so I think I understand this more after looking over the Punnet square sticky again.
So to get a bird with no markings/all one color (yellow or white) you just have to choose traits/mutations that either don't show (are recessive) or are dominant over the trait that creates those markings/color. For example, two single factor spangles together, or a recessive pied with a clearwing, etc? Either that or breed Lutino or Albinos. I hope I make sense, lol. |
A clearwing would have to carry recessive pied to breed with a recessive pied and make a dark eyed clear. 2 single factor or visually spangles would produce 25% double factor spangles that are clear, 50% single factor with spangle markings, and 25% plain birds with no spangle gene.
There are punnet squares for everything but yellow face on https://www.****************/colorsguide.html . |
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But yes that's exactly it :D Solid color mutations which can be either white or yellow are Dark Eyed Clears and Double Factor Spangles. Then you have Lutinos and Albinos. |
Ahhh, ok thanks! That make sense. :')
Can you have a bird that is both dominant or recessive pied AND spangle?? *edit- I'm guessing not since they are all genes for wing pattern/marking? |
Oooh, one other question on top of that.
If you breed two single factor dominant pieds you get 25% recessive pieds, 50%, single factor, and 25% double factor? |
Dominant pied and recessive pied are 2 different genes the same as spangle is it's own gene. If you have single factor dominant pied or recessive pied by itself the bird will probably have enough markings left on it's wings to see spangle. If you have both dominant and recessive pied together or double factor dominant pied the bird may or may not have enough markings and color left on the wings to see spangle.
A dominant pied is just that, dominant and recessive pied is a recessive gene. 1 copy of the dominant pied gene will get you dominant pied so only 1 parent needs the gene and if bred to a parent with no pied genes half would still be pied. If you breed 2 single factor dominant pieds you get 25% double factor dominant pieds, 50% single factor dominant pieds, and 25% birds with no pied gene. Recessive pied requires 2 copies to see the gene. Birds with one copy might have a marking on the back of their heads but otherwise will not show pied markings. Both parents need at least 1 copy of the gene to make recessive pieds so that at least some of the offspring get 2 copies and show it. If you breed recessive pied to recessive pied you will get only recessive pied and if you breed recessive pied to a bird with no recessive pied genes you will get offspring that carry it but do not show it except possibly that mark on the back of the head. You can combine dominant and recessive pied. The bird comes out with lots of clear feathers but still have some markings. |
Ahhh, ok. I understand now (I'm pretty sure!).
I'm trying to figure out which genes affect each other (like pied, one showing over the other). But it's becoming less confusing now. Thanks! :D |
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A pair of dominant pieds can only produce a recessive pied chick if both parents are split to recessive pied. Each of the mutations/colors listed on this site https://www.****************/colorsguide.html has a link to genetics. |
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From budgie place:
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Yes you can have a bird that is both Dominant and Recessive pied Visually and yes it can also be a spangle - each Pied is different so the amount of markings will vary so some you may not see the Spangle markings and would know by breeding it to a non spangle bird
This is my Dominant Recessive pied She is both visually https://i640.photobucket.com/albums/u...ding/Topaz.jpg |
How would a visually dominant/recessive bird work since Dominant pied is just that, dominant? O.o
*edit- obviously it does happen, but it doesn't make sense to me that a recessive gene would show as well as the dominant one! My brain hurts. >_< |
Not all genes interact. You can have 3 recessive genes show at the same time or 2 dominants and 2 recessives. They are not all connected. It's only genes that are on the same locus, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_%28genetics%29 , that can't show at the same time or of course if you have certain genes together they can hide one another. Like the pied genes erasing the wing markings so you can't see spangle.
So dominant pied is it's own locus denoted by the letter T-using budgieplace's letter designations for the genes. TT or Tt means they have dominant pied and show it. tt means they don't have dominant pied and don't show it. It has nothing to do with recessive pied. Recessive pied is on another locus denoted by the letter r. RR is no recessive pied. Rr is carrying or split for recessive pied but it does not show and rr is showing recessive pied. So if we have a dominant and recessive pied bird it would be T*rr. The * means the other gene of the pair can be anything on that locus without changing the phenotype (how the animal looks) or it's unknown. Now if we use S for spangle our bird could be T*S*rr. A dominant pied, spangled, recessive pied all visible. None of those genes are connected. Whether you have T or t has nothing to do with whether you have R or r and S or s. They are each on a different locus. The mother contributes one R or r, S or s, and T or t while the father contributes the other to make the pairs. That's how you get your punnet squares. In equine genetics we did punnet squares with 5-8 gene pairs at a time. You'd have a code like AaBBCCDD x aaBbCcchdd (mother x father) and have to write out all the possible gene combinations and the phenotype of each combination. Sometimes you can have more than 2 genes to a locus. Dilution genes in budgies are 4 genes on the same locus. You have normal-C, greywing-cg, clearwing-cw, and dilute-cd. Genes still only come in pairs so each bird only has 2 of those genes and contributes 1 randomly to it's offspring. CC is plain colored and dominant so if you have a C the others do not show irregardless of what the second gene is in the pair. Next comes greywing so if you have greywing plus greywing, clearwing or dilute (cgcg, cgcw or cgcd) then you have a greywing and don't see the other gene. Then comes clearwing so if you have only clearwing (cwcw) or clearwing and dilute (cwcd) you get clearwing. Last is dilute so the only way to get a dilute is to have cdcd. If normal, greywing, or clearwing are there you don't see dilute. That's a complicated locus without a simple dominant/recessive gene set. All those genes can be paired with any of the other genes we mentioned because they each have their own locus. What is on the locus for dilute has nothing to do with the locus for dominant pied. It does dilute the body color or markings to various extent but it does not alter what actual genes are on the locus for dark factor so we can have a cobalt greywing that looks lighter than other cobalts but it still has the genes for cobalt and the genes for greywing not the genes for skyblue. For example if we go through several of the genetics on budgieplace (yellow/white base, dark factor, grey, violet, dilution, spangle, and pied genes in that order) my skyblue greywing in my avatar would be bbddggvvcg*ssttR*pp . A white based bird (bb) with no dark factor (dd), no grey(gg), no violet(vv), greywing diluting the color with 2nd gene unknown(cg*), no spangle(ss), no dominant pied(tt), no visible recessive pied with 2nd gene unknown(R*), and no clearflight pied (pp). The unknowns mean he could be carrying a second greywing gene, a clearwing gene, or a dilute gene and he could be carrying recessive pied. You have to breed them to find out unless you have a color pedigree which might solve some of the unknowns. |
Ooook, complicated stuff!
I think I got the gyst of it though. Makes sense. I'm definitely a visual learner so even seeing the example you gave of your bird with the different letters for the genes helped! 'Tis why I like Punnett squares, because it shows you how it works. (when you have the two parents anyways, it shows what genes can be passed on) Like I said before, I am just trying to get a hold on how the different genes affect each other, if they do at all. (like if one shows or doesn't if there is a certain other gene present, etc) |
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The 1st sign that told me she was both I was told she was a double factor dominant pied - is when I put her to a recessive pied male and I got Recessive pied babies and when i went and took a closer look i realized she had no iris rings she should of because of her age she'll be 2 yrs old Aug 21 2011 and has no iris rings at all (Recessive pied do not get iris rings) |
Ahhh, that makes sense! (I couldn't figure out by looking at her picture with my inexperienced eyes how she was both, lol)
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There is no blue pigment in parrots! The cross-section of a feather shows how the feather is made up. The outer layer (cortex) is where the Psittacine (yellow) pigment is found. The section immediately below that is the cloudy zone which creates constructive interference. In the center is and area called the medulla and this is where the melanin resides along with structures called vacuoles. Essentially was happens is light from the visiable part of the electromagnetic spectrum enters the feathers. The various wavelengths change direction based in the refractive indexes of various layers of the feather and some are absorbed by the melanin. The wavelengths that finally reach our eye are the results of a process that although is hard to understand is indeed a scientific fact. The process was orignally known as "The Tyndall Effect" or "Raleigh Scattering" but through the advent of better technology we now know exactly what it is. |
If a bird is both Dominant and Recessive pied does it just depend on the bird whether both are visual or not or are their other factors involved as well?
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No one ever said blue was a gene, caused by genetics, or had anything to do with pigment. Budgieplace does not say that either. It says the blue is caused by feather structure. That does not change the fact that putting the yellow pigment with the blue that the feather gives off causes us to see green. The cause is all you are arguing over and all your assumptions do not have to do with anything I said because I never stated there was anything causing blue pigment.
A bird that has both recessive genes for recessive pied and a dominant gene or 2 for dominant pied will show both pieds. All birds will. The recessive pied will cause some clear feathers and the dominant pied will cause some clear feathers. Whether you can tell there are 2 pieds being shown,1 , or the bird is a df dominant pied is another matter. Sometimes the only way to tell recessive pied is there is that the eyes do not get an iris ring over time. The same problem happens with clearflight pied. Dominant or recessive pied can make it hard to see clearflight pied. People with lots of experience recognizing the patterns can sometimes see that there are 2 pieds happening. |
Ahhhh ok. Budgie genetics are so strange! Atleast to me anyways, lol.
It seems weird to me still that a dominant gene and a recessive gene show at the same time. Maybe it's just the name getting to me, the fact that they're both called pied that makes me think it should be one or the other. |
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now if one parent was just Split to Recessive pied I wouldn't of gotten as many different out comes It seems when a bird is split to the gene You don't get as many visually as you do when it shows it visually if that makes any sense :) |
Now I'm even more confused! So if a bird is split to recessive pied does that mean that it's Dominant Pied and Recessive Pied like P(dominant)p(recessive), or would it be like Dd(single factor dominant)pp(recessive).....
That's what is confusing me. |
I don't know a single thing about the square thing - I learned the genetics of birds w/out it - just by reading about it
any budgie can be split to recessive pied - that doesn't make it a dominant pied too but a Dominant pied can be split to recessive pied (well any mutation can be split to recessive pied except recessive pied of course) When a bird is split to a mutation it means it carries the gene but you can not visually see it. and to confuse you more a budgie can be visually all 3 Pieds so a budgie can visually be Dominant Pied, Recessive pied & Clear Flight pied all 3 being seen when looking at the bird but they can not be split to dominant pied or clear flight pied - as both of those genes are dominant |
I understand how a bird can be split and everything now, but now I'm just trying to figure out how it would work in a Punnett square to figure out if Bird A mated with Bird B what Bird C would be..
And if a bird was both visually dominant and recessive pied they wouldn't be considered split? |
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Is the following picture of "Shiny" not an example of reflected light (from camera flash) showing up the "blue" colouration in a "green series" bird? Attachment 22517 ....or will this bird just be a "green bird split for blue"...(albeit genetically a greywing green series, possibly with dilute) ? Any ideas if this is so? jacodK |
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no its normal for Greens to have a blue sheen to them You can not tell when a budgie is split to blue or any other mutation Some say a budgie that is not pied but has the pied marking is split to recessive pied - I have many that had the pied marking and were not Visually pied - they were not split to recessive pied either- but what they were was a severely badly marked Dominant pied - Every one of them with the Pied thumb print on the back of the head but no other pied markings Gave me Dominant pied babies when put with a normal - And I never got recessive pied when putting one to a recessive pied or known split to recessive pied to visually look at them they looked Normal no pied clear band, no clear wings for dominant pied or clear flight pied nothing expect the pied thumb print. I have yet to see any one with a budgie that has the Thumb print and no other pied markings be split to recessive pied. So when ever I see a bird with the thumb print I do not say "it is split to recessive pied" because I've yet to see a lot of True evidence on this. and Will not believe it means that until I see with my own eyes a lot of Proof that it can mean that. |
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Ok, makes sense. :)
I'm guessing if you're using a Punnett square all of the different mutations and such have to be calculated seperately then. |
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but I just studied the mutations, and how the genetics work, and I use a Budgie Genetic Calculator to get my exact Percent of what the out come can be but if i'm just informing my boyfriend or telling a friend I don't get all technical with %'s (it confuses them too much lol) I would say.. Say i put my Dominant Recessive pied female I posted earlier to a Dominant Pied Split Recessive pied I would tell them " I would get some Recessive pied, Some Dominant Pied,some double factor Dominant pied, Some combo pied(both Dominant and recessive pied) some Normals(not visually pied at all) and any that are not Visually Recessive pied would be split for it and actually my combo pied I posted earlier is split to another mutation but I just used her as just a combo pied for my example :) |
Ok, so I think I've figured this out.
For the Dominant/Recessive Female, and the Dominant Split Recessive Male it would be. 25% double factor dominant pied 50% single factor dominant pied and 25% normal then 50% normal split to recessive pied 50% recessive pied So how would I put those together! ?!! O_o (oh, and I used two different punnett squares to calculate the dominant and recessive's seperately...) |
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Here's a link to a website that calculates the genetic outcomes: https://www.gencalc.com/gen/eng_genc.php?sp=0Budg ...how accuratey it is I'm not sure, but I think there's a problem with the "Yellow-face (YF)" answers?! Good luck then! Jacodk |
Thanks for the link! Maybe that'll help me figure this out easier, lol.
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when you write it out as Dominant/Recessive pied - that "/" means split so did you do a dominant split to recessive pied male and female? Here's the outcome if I put my Dominant Recessive pied female To a Dominant Pied male (Dan)Rec.Pied = Recessive pied (Aust) Pied = Dominant pied (SF)= Single factor (DF) = Double factor Males 12.5% blue (Dan)rec.pied 25.0% blue(Aus)pied(sf(Dan)rec.pied 12.5% blue (Aus)pied(df) (Dan)rec.pied 12.5% blue /(Dan)rec.pied 25.0% blue (Aus)pied(sf) /(Dan)rec.pied 12.5% blue (Aus)pied(df)/(Dan)rec.pied Females 12.5% blue (Dan)rec.pied 25.0% blue (Aus)pied(sf) (Dan)rec.pied 12.5% blue (Aus)pied(df) (Dan)rec.pied 12.5% blue /(Dan)rec.pied 25.0% blue (Aus)pied(sf) /(Dan)rec.pied 12.5% blue (Aus)pied(df)/(Dan)rec.pied |
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