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Go Back   Talk Budgies Forums > Budgie Talk > Budgie Breeding > Mutations and Genetics


Mutations and Genetics Learn about budgie genetics and the wide variety of mutations.

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Old 07-14-2011, 02:00 AM
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Question Does Golden Face change the body color like Yellow Face type 2

I know I've read it some where before But I can't find it now, and I can't remember if it said it did or didn't.

so I was wanting to know does Golden face bleed into the body color changing it - Example if a Sky blue Budgie is a golden face does the yellow bleed into the body making the Sky blue look more like Sea green (like my Bubblegum and Jasmine in my signature(2 and 3rd birds from left front row) Or is it only Yellow Face type 2 that does it?

The pictures of them usually wash out their colors but both have very dark deep yellow faces. and like the pic down there shows its changed their normal sky blue color to the sea green color.


Also How do you know if a Cobalt is a Type 2 yellow face? does it change the body color as well? I know all the examples always use Sky blue(probably because its easier to see the "change" with lol) I don't think I have any Type 2 Cobalt blues, But for future References I'd like to know if it bleeds into their body color changing it at all.

I was able to find this about the Yellow face type 2 and Golden face- But I can't make head or tails of what they're meaning
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Yellowface Mutant 2 and Goldenface can be bred in single factor forms but it is desirable that only the double factor forms are exhibited as unavoidable confusion can be caused with single factor examples due to the heavily increased suffusion of yellow into the body colour which distorts the basic blue to green/blue shade.

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Old 07-14-2011, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by atvchick95 View Post
I know I've read it some where before But I can't find it now, and I can't remember if it said it did or didn't.

so I was wanting to know does Golden face bleed into the body color changing it - Example if a Sky blue Budgie is a golden face does the yellow bleed into the body making the Sky blue look more like Sea green (like my Bubblegum and Jasmine in my signature(2 and 3rd birds from left front row) Or is it only Yellow Face type 2 that does it?

The pictures of them usually wash out their colors but both have very dark deep yellow faces. and like the pic down there shows its changed their normal sky blue color to the sea green color.


Also How do you know if a Cobalt is a Type 2 yellow face? does it change the body color as well? I know all the examples always use Sky blue(probably because its easier to see the "change" with lol) I don't think I have any Type 2 Cobalt blues, But for future References I'd like to know if it bleeds into their body color changing it at all.

I was able to find this about the Yellow face type 2 and Golden face- But I can't make head or tails of what they're meaning
Now don't go spitting the dummy here cause I am not having a go at you, ok.

The reason you cannot make head nor tail of what you quoted is because you, and many like you, are stuck on the Type 1 and Type 2 thing. This is a hang-over from the days before the true genetics and full scope of yellowfaces in general were worked out by such people as Papin (USA), Gray (UK), Duncker (GER), Taylor and Warner (UK) and Lamy (?UK).

Ken Gray (UK) author of 'Rainbow Budgerigars and consituent varieties' probably did the most to define the three mutant forms and also try to make the terms 'Mutant 1' and 'Mutant 2' part of common usage..... but old habits die hard.

Peter Bergman came along in the 90's with a brilliant article re the psittacine (yellow) pigment and redefined the way we think about the yellowface group especially the blues. It is now common amongst those who are genetically inclined to now use 'blue 1' to denote the common all garden blue and the term 'blue 2' to denote the double factored Mutant 1 Yellowface. Yup, bet that threw ya for a loop! If you can't find Peter's article I have a copy and can make it available to you if you wish. It is heavy ready though and at first I suspect you will throw your hands up in the air and say it is too hard.

All YF's will "bleed" as you put it, it is the degree to which they do so and whether or not people can see it. I have always have more than average eye sight and I guess that makes me lucky and that I can see subtle differences that most people miss.

From what I could see of your Bubblegum he appears in the pic to be a single factor Goldenface. If this is so then the continued use of the terms 'type 1' and 'type 2' have caused you to misidentify your bird and it will reflect in the breeding results and should you combine two different mutations together you will get results that to you limited understanding of yellowface genetics will appear to be against the rules for Mendelian genetics.
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Old 07-14-2011, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by RIPbudgies View Post


Now don't go spitting the dummy here cause I am not having a go at you, ok.

The reason you cannot make head nor tail of what you quoted is because you, and many like you, are stuck on the Type 1 and Type 2 thing. This is a hang-over from the days before the true genetics and full scope of yellowfaces in general were worked out by such people as Papin (USA), Gray (UK), Duncker (GER), Taylor and Warner (UK) and Lamy (?UK).

Ken Gray (UK) author of 'Rainbow Budgerigars and consituent varieties' probably did the most to define the three mutant forms and also try to make the terms 'Mutant 1' and 'Mutant 2' part of common usage..... but old habits die hard.

Peter Bergman came along in the 90's with a brilliant article re the psittacine (yellow) pigment and redefined the way we think about the yellowface group especially the blues. It is now common amongst those who are genetically inclined to now use 'blue 1' to denote the common all garden blue and the term 'blue 2' to denote the double factored Mutant 1 Yellowface. Yup, bet that threw ya for a loop! If you can't find Peter's article I have a copy and can make it available to you if you wish. It is heavy ready though and at first I suspect you will throw your hands up in the air and say it is too hard.

All YF's will "bleed" as you put it, it is the degree to which they do so and whether or not people can see it. I have always have more than average eye sight and I guess that makes me lucky and that I can see subtle differences that most people miss.

From what I could see of your Bubblegum he appears in the pic to be a single factor Goldenface. If this is so then the continued use of the terms 'type 1' and 'type 2' have caused you to misidentify your bird and it will reflect in the breeding results and should you combine two different mutations together you will get results that to you limited understanding of yellowface genetics will appear to be against the rules for Mendelian genetics.
Great explanation, as always.

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Old 07-14-2011, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by RIPbudgies View Post


Now don't go spitting the dummy here cause I am not having a go at you, ok.

The reason you cannot make head nor tail of what you quoted is because you, and many like you, are stuck on the Type 1 and Type 2 thing. This is a hang-over from the days before the true genetics and full scope of yellowfaces in general were worked out by such people as Papin (USA), Gray (UK), Duncker (GER), Taylor and Warner (UK) and Lamy (?UK).

Ken Gray (UK) author of 'Rainbow Budgerigars and consituent varieties' probably did the most to define the three mutant forms and also try to make the terms 'Mutant 1' and 'Mutant 2' part of common usage..... but old habits die hard.

Peter Bergman came along in the 90's with a brilliant article re the psittacine (yellow) pigment and redefined the way we think about the yellowface group especially the blues. It is now common amongst those who are genetically inclined to now use 'blue 1' to denote the common all garden blue and the term 'blue 2' to denote the double factored Mutant 1 Yellowface. Yup, bet that threw ya for a loop! If you can't find Peter's article I have a copy and can make it available to you if you wish. It is heavy ready though and at first I suspect you will throw your hands up in the air and say it is too hard.

All YF's will "bleed" as you put it, it is the degree to which they do so and whether or not people can see it. I have always have more than average eye sight and I guess that makes me lucky and that I can see subtle differences that most people miss.

From what I could see of your Bubblegum he appears in the pic to be a single factor Goldenface. If this is so then the continued use of the terms 'type 1' and 'type 2' have caused you to misidentify your bird and it will reflect in the breeding results and should you combine two different mutations together you will get results that to you limited understanding of yellowface genetics will appear to be against the rules for Mendelian genetics.

OOH that is what the Blue II on the budgie genetic calculator is - I'd click on the pic icon beside it but it just shows several pics of blue birds in general wasn't a explanation of what that itself meant

I'm going off topic for a second - With the above now known(to me anyway lol) (The blueII being a type of yellowface) Would I use that option when I'm using the calculator instead of using Bl. Yellowface - Because when I use that option I get 100% yellow face even if Just 1 parent is a yellow face & I know that isn't correct I will not get 100% yellow face when only 1 parent has a yellow face. and if I do would I just use it for the Yellow Face 1 (the one that predominantly stays on the mask) it also has a Bl.goldenface - but I've never used it since I'm not sure if any of mine are actually golden face or not but I have a feeling it would do the same as the Bl. yellow face and make the outcome 100% yellowface(does that work like that with the Golden face?)

And what really is the difference between calling them "mutant 1" or "type 1" if the meaning is the same and just a different term is used?

I know there are several types of yellow face I get that and I know how they work I know Type 1 (or I guess it would be your Mutant 1) is where the yellow basically stays on the mask, but it can "bleed" (or Spread) on to the white area's (talking blue series here since I don't really deal in green series) like on the smaller outer tail feathers, and even the wings Type 2 (Mutant 2) Bleeds/spreads into the body color changing a normal sky blue to make it look more sea green and The face is also darker on this type its more of a buttercup yellow where as the 1st one is more of a lemony yellow, Then you have the Golden face which I'm assuming is basically the same as the 2nd type only the face is even darker than the 2nd type like its more noticeably a different shade of yellow.. then there is the Double factor Yellow face which you wouldn't know your bird had that unless you bred it to one who you knew did not have a yellow face and got yellow face babies, Because the appearance of the Double Factor YF is the same as a "normal" White face and I know most articles say the Golden face can be in DF form and that is what is wanted- but I still haven't figured out how you tell if your bird is DF or sf golden face - I'd assume only way to tell is through breeding to a non yellow face?

Bubblegum is my little buddy who has been confusing me lately. When I first got him I thought he was your typical run of the mill yellow face 2 Sky blue grey wing when I got him I wasn't into breeding grey wings(still trying not to get so many but the harder I try the more I get lol) but now that I'm getting so many and I read more into the Grey wing His body color is not diluted in the least(which has had me bring up threads that maybe he's not the typical grey wing after all and now I've been told he looks like a Clear wing(but a "dirty version" of one) and I was thinking maybe hes a full body grey wing , Then the more I look at him and compare him to any of my yellow faces(now that I am getting more and have more to compare to) rather they're 1 or 2 His face is at least 2 shades Darker than any of theirs (except his Daughter Jasmine beside him in my siggy her's matches his except they have 2 different shades of cheek patches ) But I did breed him to a Non Yellow face to get Jasmine they had 4 babies including her she was the only visual grey wing the rest were either dominant pied Like their mom or a mix of Dominant and recessive pied Because both parents are split to Recessive pied but all 4 babies were visually yellow faces

The article - I searched for about 30 minutes last night and every link I clicked took me back to the same page Some pet website with no article - I started out on the **************** page because they had it linked on their site - Then I just started to Google it, and kept coming up empty handed

I don't think I left anything out If I did sorry (And sorry if I come off as a crazy woman lol I just have a hard time comprehending (always have) things so I have to have it put into easy to understand forms or my brain just doesn't get it.

And I hope this makes sense - I just got up a little bit ago and its been a circus around here since my feet hit the floor! and as I'm typing away I some how manage to spill a entire glass of Mt. Dew all over my cell phone, Home phone and half my computer desk I think this is Monday and not Thursday lol

but at the end of the day Does a Golden face Bleed or spread into the body color changing its appearance like a Yellow face 2 does? (I know the yellow face 1 can spread but it doesn't ever seem to change the color of the body when it does since it basically stays to the white areas of the wings and sometimes the tails)

Last edited by atvchick95; 07-14-2011 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:34 PM
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Hey ATV!

I also searched for those articles last night, here are the links, they are part one and part two.
https://web.archive.org/web/200712311...r/yface01.html

https://web.archive.org/web/200801220...r/yface02.html

I had the same trouble finding it as you did, but finally one of the Google hits told where to find it, and then the link didn't work, and I had to copy and paste it in my browser, but once I found them, I added them to my favorites.

To answer your question about the "bleeding", yes, the Golden face does bleed into the body and turn the sky blue seafoam.

Part of the problem where people get confused about the yellow face genes, is because they think of them as "adding yellow" to blue birds. But what is really happening is that they are a mutation that damages the production of yellow, so they are really "taking away yellow" from green birds.

So a blue bird is really just a green bird that has damaged genes and can't make any yellow at all. And a yellow face bird is a green bird that has partially damaged genes, so it only makes SOME of the yellow. It ends up somewhere in between the green and the blue.

Oh, and also, I have a yf2 cobalt chick that is just starting to molt, so I will let you know what shade her body ends up being.
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Budgiedin View Post
Hey ATV!

I also searched for those articles last night, here are the links, they are part one and part two.
https://web.archive.org/web/200712311...r/yface01.html

https://web.archive.org/web/200801220...r/yface02.html

I had the same trouble finding it as you did, but finally one of the Google hits told where to find it, and then the link didn't work, and I had to copy and paste it in my browser, but once I found them, I added them to my favorites.

To answer your question about the "bleeding", yes, the Golden face does bleed into the body and turn the sky blue seafoam.

Part of the problem where people get confused about the yellow face genes, is because they think of them as "adding yellow" to blue birds. But what is really happening is that they are a mutation that damages the production of yellow, so they are really "taking away yellow" from green birds.

So a blue bird is really just a green bird that has damaged genes and can't make any yellow at all. And a yellow face bird is a green bird that has partially damaged genes, so it only makes SOME of the yellow. It ends up somewhere in between the green and the blue.

Oh, and also, I have a yf2 cobalt chick that is just starting to molt, so I will let you know what shade her body ends up being.
Thank you after a while of dead ends I was getting aggravated and had to go find something else to do LOL

I'll be looking forward to seeing if you yellow face 2 cobalt blue changes

ooh and how have you been it's been a while I know you have an exchange student with you for a bit, How's that going?

I've had to remind my self a few times that you were very busy this summer to keep the E-mails down until you weren't so busy but all my babies are weaned except the Male English(the "Battle" baby lol) He's being so stubborn I emailed the lady about 2 weeks ago with pics and updates haven't heard a word from her though. But I have seen him in the last 2 days nibbling at the Seeds So I'm planning on sending her an Email again tonight - Hopefully she responds- if not hope she read my disclaimer very well!

One of my babies Moved to Illinois Last week

Thanks again for the links - I'll go check them out.
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Old 07-14-2011, 02:01 PM
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ooh and how have you been it's been a while I know you have an exchange student with you for a bit, How's that going?

.
LOL! It's going very well, she gets along with our kids great! Leaving to go camping in two days, so I'm not supposed to be on the computer right now!
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:49 AM
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LOL! It's going very well, she gets along with our kids great! Leaving to go camping in two days, so I'm not supposed to be on the computer right now!
Glad to hear all is going well, Have a good time camping
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Old 07-15-2011, 03:09 AM
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I have quoted your post and made the necessary comments within to help you assimilate the information better.

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Originally Posted by atvchick95 View Post



OOH that is what the Blue II on the budgie genetic calculator is - I'd click on the pic icon beside it but it just shows several pics of blue birds in general wasn't a explanation of what that itself meant

You will find any good genetic program will have either Blue II or use the term double factor to represent YF M1 double factor bird.

I'm going off topic for a second - With the above now known(to me anyway lol) (The blueII being a type of yellowface) Would I use that option when I'm using the calculator instead of using Bl. Yellowface - Because when I use that option I get 100% yellow face even if Just 1 parent is a yellow face & I know that isn't correct I will not get 100% yellow face when only 1 parent has a yellow face. and if I do would I just use it for the Yellow Face 1 (the one that predominantly stays on the mask) it also has a Bl.goldenface - but I've never used it since I'm not sure if any of mine are actually golden face or not but I have a feeling it would do the same as the Bl. yellow face and make the outcome 100% yellowface(does that work like that with the Golden face?)

The Blue II is the term to denote the double factor Yellowface Mutant 1. So when you enter this term into the program the result will be 100% single factor Yellowface Mutant 1.

The “Bl.goldenface” means it is a single factor Goldenface.
The “Bl.yellowface” means it is a single factor Yellowface most likely Mutant 1


And what really is the difference between calling them "mutant 1" or "type 1" if the meaning is the same and just a different term is used?

The term “Type” has another meaning. Originally written as and in correct circles, still done today the words are Type I and Type II. They are used to denote the linkage between the Blue and dark factors. For example most people will write Dk Green/Blue, but is the bird a Dark Green/Blue Type I or a Dark Green/Blue Type II. There is a difference and it will be evident in the particular pairings. The terms Type I and Type II inform you were the dark factor was inherited from in a Dark Green/Blue bird. If inherited from an Green it will be Type I, if from a Blue then it will be Type II.

I know there are several types of yellow face I get that and I know how they work I know Type 1 (or I guess it would be your Mutant 1) is where the yellow basically stays on the mask, but it can "bleed" (or Spread) on to the white area's (talking blue series here since I don't really deal in green series) like on the smaller outer tail feathers, and even the wings Type 2 (Mutant 2) Bleeds/spreads into the body color changing a normal sky blue to make it look more sea green and The face is also darker on this type its more of a buttercup yellow where as the 1st one is more of a lemony yellow,

Now this is where your “Type 1 and Type 2” use comes unstuck.

You are classifying the Yellowface Mutant 1 as a Type 1 which is the single factor form and has a pale yellow face. It does has a certain amount of yellow ‘bleeding’ into the body but barely noticeable by most.

Then you classify the Yellowface Mutant 2 as a Type 2 which is the single factor form and has a Yellowface about double the colour of the face of YF M1, the yellow being stronger is more evident when ‘bleeding’ into the body. Now there is a double factor form of this bird and I guess under your rules of you must classify this as a Type 1.


Then you have the Golden face which I'm assuming is basically the same as the 2nd type only the face is even darker than the 2nd type like its more noticeably a different shade of yellow..

The Goldenface is in both a single and double factor form. You classify the single factor bird as a Type 2.

then there is the Double factor Yellow face which you wouldn't know your bird had that unless you bred it to one who you knew did not have a yellow face and got yellow face babies, Because the appearance of the Double Factor YF is the same as a "normal" White face

This bird you cite is the double factor form of the Yellowface Mutant 1 and is indeed a white face blue bird. You call this Type 3.

and I know most articles say the Golden face can be in DF form and that is what is wanted- but I still haven't figured out how you tell if your bird is DF or sf golden face - I'd assume only way to tell is through breeding to a non yellow face?

This is where your ‘type’ rule have led you. You are confused now on how to tell a sf and df Goldenface apart. Understandable because you are classifying three YF mutants in two groups based on suffusion alone. The sf and df form of Goldenface is quite distinct and I guess under your ‘type’ rules you would have to classify the df form as a Type 1.

Bubblegum is my little buddy who has been confusing me lately. When I first got him I thought he was your typical run of the mill yellow face 2 Sky blue grey wing when I got him I wasn't into breeding grey wings(still trying not to get so many but the harder I try the more I get lol) but now that I'm getting so many and I read more into the Grey wing His body color is not diluted in the least(which has had me bring up threads that maybe he's not the typical grey wing after all and now I've been told he looks like a Clear wing(but a "dirty version" of one) and I was thinking maybe hes a full body grey wing , Then the more I look at him and compare him to any of my yellow faces(now that I am getting more and have more to compare to) rather they're 1 or 2 His face is at least 2 shades Darker than any of theirs (except his Daughter Jasmine beside him in my siggy her's matches his except they have 2 different shades of cheek patches ) But I did breed him to a Non Yellow face to get Jasmine they had 4 babies including her she was the only visual grey wing the rest were either dominant pied Like their mom or a mix of Dominant and recessive pied Because both parents are split to Recessive pied but all 4 babies were visually yellow faces

It was I who told you that Bubblegum is most likely a dirty Clearwing. If fact I have just bred one myself, completely unplanned mind you. As it turns out the father is a sf Goldenface/Clearwing and the mum is a Sky Blue/Dilute. Parents are related in that it is a grandfather and grand-daughter paring. I also think that your bird is a sf Goldenface. Photos of blue birds though are hard to gauge so keep that in mind.

The article - I searched for about 30 minutes last night and every link I clicked took me back to the same page Some pet website with no article - I started out on the **************** page because they had it linked on their site - Then I just started to Google it, and kept coming up empty handed

I don't think I left anything out If I did sorry (And sorry if I come off as a crazy woman lol I just have a hard time comprehending (always have) things so I have to have it put into easy to understand forms or my brain just doesn't get it.

And I hope this makes sense - I just got up a little bit ago and its been a circus around here since my feet hit the floor! and as I'm typing away I some how manage to spill a entire glass of Mt. Dew all over my cell phone, Home phone and half my computer desk I think this is Monday and not Thursday lol

but at the end of the day Does a Golden face Bleed or spread into the body color changing its appearance like a Yellow face 2 does? (I know the yellow face 1 can spread but it doesn't ever seem to change the color of the body when it does since it basically stays to the white areas of the wings and sometimes the tails)

As I stated previously ALL YF’s ‘bleed’ but do so based on which Mutant they are and whether they are the single or double factor form.

So to sum up I will list all the Yellowfaces firstly into the single and double factor forms of each mutation, in brackets I will use the ‘Type’ rule.

Single Factor Form

Goldenface………..(Type 2)
Yellowface M1……(Type 1)
Yellowface M2……(Type 2)

Double Factor Form

Goldenface………..(Type 1)
Yellowface M1……(Type 3)
Yellowface M2……(Type 1)

As you can see the Type rules don’t work!
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Old 07-15-2011, 09:49 AM
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atvchick95 is a fantastic personatvchick95 is a fantastic personatvchick95 is a fantastic personatvchick95 is a fantastic personatvchick95 is a fantastic personatvchick95 is a fantastic personatvchick95 is a fantastic personatvchick95 is a fantastic personatvchick95 is a fantastic personatvchick95 is a fantastic person
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Thanks with bubblegum I had a couple others also say he maybe Clearwing as well but since i bought him as an Adult from a lady on Craigslist who had 6 bird crammed into a dirty nasty cage I wouldn't even put a pet rock in, I don't know anything about him except what I'm finding out from breeding him.

I am not sure why my brain won't latch on to understanding the "mutant" word when I'm reading it I think its because the word actually makes me think of something disfigured (I know that's not how its meant but that is how my brain sees it)

and I think the reason I can't distinguish the 2 forms of Goldenface is because you don't see a whole lot of them in my area. The majority of yellow faces in my area or general surrounding area is The Yellow face that stays mainly on the body The one with the more pale yellow face.. Or the one that is a bit darker yellow on the face and changes the body color of a sky blue to make it look sea green but still the face itself is not extremely dark but darker than the pale yellow

It also doesn't help that most Breeders around here Colony breed and don't know what in the world they have. one guy an Old Man Who's been breeding probably since he was a small child - Has told me many times(and it actually makes my skin crawl) when i was looking for certain mutations in his flock he had for sale " it does not matter what color they are just throw them together and you'll get a bunch of colors" - now he didn't colony breed he caged bred but still he had no clue what in the world he had because he just tosses them together and gets an array of colors he may of Colony bred in the past but since I've known him (well been to his house like 3 times I don't really "know him" he puts them all in nasty little dirty rusted breeder cages

I read the article you suggested, But I'll have to read it several more times to grasp it. When they start going into the whole science thing the whole b1 B2 things I get so lost but I will eventually get it Or I hope so lol It didn't take me long to figure out how the mutations worked and I failed science class but Found sites that put it in easy to understand terms so I was able to understand it better
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