Tessa's Journal (Ongoing Thread) - Page 2 - Talk Budgies Forums


User Menu
Forum Home
Budgie Gallery
Budgie FAQ
Site Guidelines
How-To-Guide
Members List
Today's Posts
Log In
Register now!
Search



Advanced Search
Popular Forums
Announcements

Budgie Articles

Budgie Talk

Budgie Pictures

Budgie Videos

Budgie Behavior

Determining Gender

Your Budgie's Health

Taming and Bonding

Budgie Breeding

In Memory

Other Birds

Contests

Chit Chat

Site Information

Talk Network
Talk Budgies
Talk Cockatiels
Talk Parrotlets
Talk Parrots
Sponsored Ads

Go Back   Talk Budgies Forums > Off Topic > Lighthearted and Upbeat Chit Chat Only > Other Pets


Other Pets Share pictures and stories about your non-avian pets
Thread Description:Dressage, Liberty, Trick Training

Reply
 
Short URL LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 09-16-2018, 11:59 AM
Hunterkat's Avatar
Hunterkat (Katherine)
Budgie
State:
 
Profile:Hunterkat is offline
Gender:
Number of Budgies: 2
Budgie Experience Level: Budgie Owner
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,545
Gallery: 0
Karma:
Points: 500
Rep Power: 4
Hunterkat is a glorious beacon of lightHunterkat is a glorious beacon of lightHunterkat is a glorious beacon of lightHunterkat is a glorious beacon of lightHunterkat is a glorious beacon of lightHunterkat is a glorious beacon of light
Default

This is why it kills me that people say dressage is easy! It isn't, at all.

__________________
~Niko and Tetra~
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #12  
Old 10-02-2018, 05:12 PM
BooksBudgies's Avatar
BooksBudgies (Katie)
Young Budgie
 
Profile:BooksBudgies is offline
Gender:
Number of Budgies: 3
Budgie Experience Level: Budgie Lover
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 646
Gallery: 0
Karma:
Points: 1350
Rep Power: 7
BooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic person
Default Clicker Training

Thank you everyone who read that and replied! I love reading through the comments!

My goal was to update this on a weekly basis but the breeding thread/senior project has been sucking up that time. And applying to colleges, teaching lessons, school, etc. I am happy to say I still get to ride Tess 4-5x a week in the midst of this craziness. Looking forward to what will probably be the last show of the season at the end of this month.

Okay, this post isn't going to be as long as my last dressage post

This one is going to be about something that is likely familiar to many of you on this forum: clicker training! Granted, clicker training every animal is different. Clicker training my puppy has been very different than clicker training my horse, for example. And if you clicker train your budgie this will look very different.

So I've been trying to figure out how I want to divide these subjects. Clicker training translates into dressage and liberty and tricks. I think I'll just summarize and explain the benefits of clicker training then post a video from one of my training sessions with a rescue mare.

Horse training is divided into two main categories: positive reinforcement (R+) and negative reinforcement (R-). For much of the horse world, riding and training are all R-...not even going to touch on punishment. You so often hear something like, "you need to show his horse who's boss...give them a swift kick in the side." I have discovered that horses aren't stubborn or aversive for fun; they always have a reason. If we take it down a level to general riding cues, you add pressure for aids and take it away when the horse has responded. That is probably the most common form of R-. Now, I will admit that while I try to do as much as possible with R+ I sometimes use light pressure that isn't uncomfortable for the horse to aid in communication. Dressage is all about connection after all. Connection of mind and body, and sometimes that means the horse feels the contact of the bit. As long as it's comfortable for them, I don't have any issues with it.

Before I go down too much of that rabbit trail, let's go back to the why behind clicker training. It is one of the most common applications of R+ because it marks a behavior. You click when the animal performs what you were requesting and reward...most commonly with food, though sometimes a scratch or verbal reward can be used just as effectively. It allows you to let the horse know which specific behavior you are rewarding for, especially if you can't give them a treat soon enough. Now, especially with horses, you will need to teach some manners regarding food. I'm not really going to get into that process but if it really interests you or you have an equine friend you'd like to try it on, check out TWE's blog: https://www.thewillingequine.com/sin...To-Get-Started

Depending on the behavior you're trying to teach and the animal itself, you may reward different variations of that behavior. Like when I wanted to engage Tessa's mind more in dressage, I would reward every thought or attempt of understanding a cue. As the horse understands, you can request more and reward less. Again, this is a process depending on individual situations. I've incorporated clicker training into every session with Tessa; it is my means of communicating with her (and riding horse is all about communication between horse and rider). She used to have an aversion to being saddled, so every time I made a move towards saddling and she remained calm/happy I rewarded. This works much better than punishing any behavior I don't want to see. She likely had had pain when saddling before I got her or some memory tied down. Punishing shuts a horse down or forces them to take drastic measures to communicate their stress or displeasure.

Teaching lightness of aids: most teach a horse to respond to the lightest cue by asking lightly, then increasing pressure until it the horse responds. Because of the discomfort caused, a horse will respond right away next time. I kind of feel like this is forcing a horse to do whatever we want...this isn't the way I want riding to look like. Tessa shuts down whenever there is too much pressure and will get downright cranky if you so much as press against her sides. To train lightness of aids, I request with my seat and if she responds by a very slight movement or the thought of the movement, I reward. I continue doing this until she is responding right away, and eagerly. Much better way to go about it in my opinion.

The same process goes for liberty and tricks, but I'll get into that when I post about those. Okay, below are some video clips when I was working with a rescue mare. When I started, she would run away as soon as she saw the halter. Now, purely by positive reinforcement/clicker training, she will nicker and run to greet you. R+ was especially beneficial for her since she had been abused and forced into situations that scared her. By removing the pressure and allowing her to do everything of her own accord, she blossomed. Now she eagerly comes to "play" instead of "work."

Video #1: This is one of the first introductions of positive reinforcement with her. I rewarded every time she made a move with her nose toward the halter until she ended up haltering herself! If she got a little nervous and took a step back, I would step back from her and she would come back to me of her own accord. As you can see she became much more confident. Actually edited these clips but it was the first time I got the halter all the way over her head!

Video #2: unedited except for trimming clips. I don't realize how much I cooed to her and don't like the sound of my voice on video (does anyone?) but this way you can hear the clicker and whatnot. My goal on this session was to encourage her to express herself and show she's not going to get punished for it. Tessa needs no encouragement to do this and I'm normally working to show her how to express it safely She'll buck, rear, and kick to play with you until the cows come home. When Sioux started trotting after me and responding to every change in my body position it was HUGE for her. Still trying to tap into this energy more and more. The video is pretty crummy since I had to prop my phone on a fence post and as you can see it chopped off the top part. The other is so bumpy because I'm jogging. But hopefully it helps give you a visual of an ordinary training session



EDIT: Sorry about that! Got 2nd video working now
__________________
"The LORD your God is with you; the mighty One will save you. He will rejoice over you. You will rest in His love; He will sing and be joyful about you." ~Zephaniah 3:17


Offering custom art for sale. PM me for details

Last edited by BooksBudgies; 10-02-2018 at 09:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-02-2018, 07:27 PM
FaeryBee's Avatar
FaeryBee (Deborah)
Administrator



State:
 
Profile:FaeryBee is offline
Gender:
Number of Budgies: 7
Budgie Experience Level: Budgie Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 53,656
Gallery: 0
Karma:
Points: 2575
Rep Power: 35
FaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Katie,
I loved your explanations about training with horses, thank you.
The first video was great but unfortunately I could not view the second one. I got an error message when I tried. I'll try again later to see if it was on my end.
This thread is awesome!
__________________

Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #14  
Old 10-03-2018, 11:47 AM
RavensGryf's Avatar
RavensGryf (Julie)
Super Moderator/Member of the Month October 2015

State:
 
Profile:RavensGryf is offline
Gender:
Number of Budgies: 2
Budgie Experience Level: Budgie Owner
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Southern California
Posts: 6,696
Gallery: 0
Karma:
Points: 4942
Rep Power: 16
RavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond repute
Default

This post was just as fascinating as the last one . Good to hear the horse world is adopting newer training methods. Who is Sioux? Love the markings.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-03-2018, 02:13 PM
BooksBudgies's Avatar
BooksBudgies (Katie)
Young Budgie
 
Profile:BooksBudgies is offline
Gender:
Number of Budgies: 3
Budgie Experience Level: Budgie Lover
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 646
Gallery: 0
Karma:
Points: 1350
Rep Power: 7
BooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic person
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavensGryf View Post
This post was just as fascinating as the last one . Good to hear the horse world is adopting newer training methods. Who is Sioux? Love the markings.
She's owned by my trainer/barn manager (who is amazing). I work with Sioux in exchange for getting money taken off of my costs for Tessa. I've mostly been doing confidence building and fostering an eagerness to work with people again. My trainer has done work with her before, but this situation works well for all of us! Our hope is for me to able to ride her under saddle eventually but we're taking it at her pace.
__________________
"The LORD your God is with you; the mighty One will save you. He will rejoice over you. You will rest in His love; He will sing and be joyful about you." ~Zephaniah 3:17


Offering custom art for sale. PM me for details
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-03-2018, 09:05 PM
Cody's Avatar
Moderator


State:
 
Profile:Cody is offline
Gender:
Number of Budgies: 8
Budgie Experience Level: Budgie Lover
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 2,334
Gallery: 1
Karma:
Points: 2535
Rep Power: 11
Cody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Great post, I feel like I am actually getting to know Tessa. You are very fortunate to be able to interact with the horses as you do.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-07-2018, 07:28 PM
RavensGryf's Avatar
RavensGryf (Julie)
Super Moderator/Member of the Month October 2015

State:
 
Profile:RavensGryf is offline
Gender:
Number of Budgies: 2
Budgie Experience Level: Budgie Owner
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Southern California
Posts: 6,696
Gallery: 0
Karma:
Points: 4942
Rep Power: 16
RavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond reputeRavensGryf has a reputation beyond repute
Default

That sounds like a good arrangement with you working with Sioux . It sounds win-win for everyone! Plus a nice sense of accomplishment when you get her to the end goal! Positive reinforcement for Katie too!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:40 PM
BooksBudgies's Avatar
BooksBudgies (Katie)
Young Budgie
 
Profile:BooksBudgies is offline
Gender:
Number of Budgies: 3
Budgie Experience Level: Budgie Lover
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 646
Gallery: 0
Karma:
Points: 1350
Rep Power: 7
BooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic personBooksBudgies is a fantastic person
Default


Okay I have my reasons for disappearing, I promise Basically, I was at a kind of crossroad in Tessa's training. I've been spending these last 6-something weeks researching, experimenting, and talking to other trainers. I feel like I'm cemented enough in this new journey to write about it (finally). This post will also be quite video-heavy as I feel like that's one of the easiest ways to relate what it looks like during ordinary instances. Oh, and enjoy the Mamma Mia music

This new training I've been exploring is taking what I'm already doing...one step further. It centers around two very important concepts: intrinsic motivation & horse autonomy.

Intrinsic Motivation says that moving properly should feel good and be reward enough in itself to encourage the horse to keep moving that way. I've talked about this before on my Dressage post, but now I've been testing it. If a horse is doing a movement because it feels good, they should always be seeking to do it...unless there's an underlying problem, however small. And that's what I've been discovering with Tessa! She shouldn't be doing a behavior to "just get the treat" nor should she be doing a behavior to escape the pressure of a cue (think the ask-tell-demand model we hear about so often). If you ask a horse to do something and know that if they don't you'll keep demanding it in a more insistent/uncomfortable way until they succumb, was the first time a genuine request? Or was there a threat of "do this or else?"

Turns out, you can still be controlling a horse even if you're using positive reinforcement. A horse can be so food-motivated that the pressure to get the treat overrides the joy of performing the movement or causes them to push themselves too far physically. Once I opened this can of worms...I learned a whole lot about Tessa girl. She gets anxious around food, which turns into aggression. I'm not talking about biting/kicking aggression, but more about frustration seen in movements. I would start to worry she was going to run me over in the frantic guess at the desired movement to attain the treat. I put a safety barrier between us (the fence) to keep myself safe, but it's clear she is still frustrated.


You'd think that this would mean it was time I stop using food rewards.
Actually, it's the opposite. In order to overcome this anxiety, I need to devalue food through two means: 1) provide free hay when working that is always available and 2) use a "less tasty" treat given in smaller amounts (I now give her a handful of healthy treat crumbs). I have to say, it feels good knowing that Tessa is now doing whatever I'm asking because she finds it rewarding to do what I ask. Whether to satisfy her curiosity, joy of interacting with me, or because it's intrinsically motivating, she's there and she's doing it. While I taught her basic food manners while introducing the clicker, I've taken it one step further and now have her back up out of my space in order to get the treat. It is also helpful in encouraging her to raise her poll and drop into her hind end. I love utilizing this in her hilly paddock; she learns balance as she backs up and down hills of her own accord. She is starting to back up now as soon as she hears the clicker without me asking her to.

Notice how much she's relaxed in this video compared to the first one now that she has easily attainable hay


Now, this next term overlaps with the first so I'll address it here: Autonomy. Basically, it means that you allow a horse to say "no" in their training and you won't keep needling at them to say yes, increase pressure, or reprimand them for doing so. I first had visions of horses not budging once during the entire ride or running rampant if they were allowed a say in their training. This is an idea I've been researching for over a year and have been grasping a fuller understanding of it during that time. It's a continuum and now I'm just taking the next step in this training.

I've learned that it is actually safer to allow a horse autonomy. They won't be forced to do something extreme to express their discomfort (i.e. bucking). As the trainer, I can catch the smallest signs of pain or fear by allowing her to refuse a movement without punishment. This builds confidence and trust, as well as a decrease in injuries (she won't be forced to do something too physically or mentally demanding).

Also, Tessa has quickly become more eager now that she knows I respect her choice. I've mentioned this before, but she always has a reason behind choosing to do a behavior or not (no such thing as just being stubborn). So if she doesn't trot after my light squeeze, I don't give a harder cue. I ask again later with the same light cue and if she still doesn't respond, I drop it. Later I can uncover the reason behind her refusal and I'll often be surprised. Still taking the trot example, she now offers it before I even ask. It's her least favorite gait, so that is a definite improvement from having to chase her around with the whip. Just that shift of perception has changed so much in her training! I figure she knows her body better than anyone else, so why not let her tell me what she needs?


When I first started offering Tessa free hay during our sessions, she was so worried about the food disappearing that she'd ignore me the entire time and just eat. That was especially hard for me to stand by and allow to happen; who wants to have food chosen over them? I took to taking a book so I wouldn't be tempted to keep asking her to revise her clear "no." Just yesterday, I opened up my book expecting to spend the next hour or so reading (which is actually peaceful), but Tessa left her food to investigate the book and lay her head across my lap! It feelsso wonderful to see her so happy! She's starting to meet me at the gate (I've always had to go retrieve her from wherever she was at) and will leave hay along the walk from her paddock to the arena without a tug on the rope, but just from a whistle from me.
What a change only 3 weeks makes!


I've introduced two "games" to inspire greater intrinsic motivation.

The first is Chase the Bag: I found this from a Natural Dressage website. Horses naturally collect while they're playing- no need for them to use the rider as a crutch to help them along! Even though horses are prey animals, they still enjoy tracking something down. And, hey, plastic bags have now gone from scary to fun in Tessa's mind. It will also encourage her to sit on her hind end to lighten her front end enough to strike with her front hooves at the bag. Additionally, it helps her stretch! All of these benefits plus the fun of the game and joy of seeing your horse enjoy moving again. Clips below are from the first 3 times I've worked with Tess on this. For now I'm just letting her get comfortable with the bag and understand the concept of following it. I don't want to rush this foundation, but I look forward to getting some fun movement from her (allowing her to be creative and make up her own movements is so rewarding! She does it on her own time too ).


The second thing I'm working on is core stabilizers. It's the equivalent of a crunch for a horse. I'm looking for her to lift her back, raise her poll, or contract her underbelly muscles. These are all things we've worked on while riding or during in-hand work, but I want to step back and let her figure it out on her own. This method forces her to deliberately think through and put her body through physical exercises. She's not mindlessly moving away from pressure presented through a cue. What we do in dressage should carry over into how she moves without me, but I believe having her understand these will accentuate that even more! I'll also know how her body is because she's completely honest: if it gets too hard or painful, she just walks away. This will be especially important coming into winter; don't want cold, stiff muscles resulting in injury! The clips below are from our second session working on this. It's not much yet, but I'm rewarding every thought toward engaging her core and these little things will result in big, amazing things

__________________
"The LORD your God is with you; the mighty One will save you. He will rejoice over you. You will rest in His love; He will sing and be joyful about you." ~Zephaniah 3:17


Offering custom art for sale. PM me for details
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:16 PM
FaeryBee's Avatar
FaeryBee (Deborah)
Administrator



State:
 
Profile:FaeryBee is offline
Gender:
Number of Budgies: 7
Budgie Experience Level: Budgie Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 53,656
Gallery: 0
Karma:
Points: 2575
Rep Power: 35
FaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond reputeFaeryBee has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I'm in total awe ... I just don't have the words to express it.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:34 PM
Cody's Avatar
Moderator


State:
 
Profile:Cody is offline
Gender:
Number of Budgies: 8
Budgie Experience Level: Budgie Lover
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 2,334
Gallery: 1
Karma:
Points: 2535
Rep Power: 11
Cody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond reputeCody has a reputation beyond repute
Default

This is really fascinating, well done.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply



Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:42 PM.



Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright © 2000- 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © 2006 - , 2403 Networks LLC. All rights reserved.