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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I wonder if the experts can offer an educated guess as to this 16-day-old chick's mutations? Can you also guess who's more likely to be the father?

Mother = either cobalt opaline spangle combination pied
.............or......cobalt opaline spangle dominant pied split for recessive pied

Father #1 = cobalt YF1 recessive pied
Father #2 = sky blue double factor YF1 normal split for recessive pied

No body color is showing yet, but I know he must be blue.
I know he's YF1 rather than white face because his head, wing and tail feathers are pale yellow. Thus, either **** could be his father.
I know he's pied, but I don't know whether he's DP, RP or combination pied.
His primary wing feathers are clear. Does this indicate which type of pied he is?
He lacks any black markings. Does this mean he's spangle? And does this indicate which type of pied he is?

Thanks in advance! :D
 

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The chick looks like a yellow face double factor spangle. To be double factor spangle both parents would have to be spangle. Are there any other possible fathers? Or could the recessive pied male be spangle as well as pied?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
The chick looks like a yellow face double factor spangle. To be double factor spangle both parents would have to be spangle. Are there any other possible fathers? Or could the recessive pied male be spangle as well as pied?
I suppose that depends whether spangle is always visual, or whether it can be masked or recessive.

The cobalt YF1 recessive pied male (see first picture) is the product of the aforementioned sky blue DFYF1 normal/RP **** bird x cobalt dilute/RP hen. The other **** birds from this pairing are cobalt YF1 normal. I don't think any of these **** birds/possible fathers are spangle, unless the spangle is masked on the RP or recessive on the normals.

I have a green normal **** bird who shows a bit of opaline. If he's spangle, it's recessive (if there is such a thing). Regardless, I don't think he's capable of fathering any children.

Since my flock lives together in a colony, it's possible the chick's father is one of the spangle hen's three 2-year-old sons. (Although I've never seen any of her sons court or mate with her, I have to acknowledge the possibility.) The father to all three sons is the aforementioned sky blue DFYF1 normal/RP **** bird. One of the three sons is visual cobalt YF1 normal and the other two are visual sky blue YF1 combination pied or DP (and possibly spangle). The second picture is the normal and pied sons; the other pied son is identical except he has violet cheek patches instead of clear. The two pied sons have blue patches confined to their rumps and black markings on their heads but none on their wings; I assume the lack of black markings means they're spangle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Wouldn't the widespread yellow indicate YF2 rather than YF1?
That's an excellent question because YF1 is usually confined to mask and tail coverts. However, since my flock does not include any YF2's, none of the progeny can be YF2. My most promiscuous **** bird (who fathered 12 babies with two hens) is visually a white-faced blue (see picture); however, since his children are YF, he's a double factor yellow face type 1, and thus his YF children can only be YF type 1. Most of his children have yellow "suffusion," which means the yellow extends to their bodies. However, the yellow does not color their blue bodies to green, which is another indicator of type 1 rather than type 2.
 

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it does look like it is not going to have any markings or body colour, and as there are male and female spangles in the flight it would be most likely it is a df spangle from a mother son mating.

more photos once it has feathered up will help confirm if this is so.

if it was a sf spangle then there would be markings on the wings by now, and spangle is not recessive so the only way for it to be present and not visible is if it is masked by something like ino or dark eyed clear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
it does look like it is not going to have any markings or body colour, and as there are male and female spangles in the flight it would be most likely it is a df spangle from a mother son mating.
Oops! :p

more photos once it has feathered up will help confirm if this is so.
I'll be sure to post more photos both here and in my Breeding Journal (http://talkbudgies.com/showthread.php?t=64066).

if it was a sf spangle then there would be markings on the wings by now, and spangle is not recessive so the only way for it to be present and not visible is if it is masked by something like ino or dark eyed clear.
That's very interesting. Thank you! :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
FYI, here's a picture of the mother hen. The experts here opined she's a cobalt opaline spangle combined pied or dominant pied split for recessive pied. She has iris rings. She does not have any black markings.

The second picture is the mother hen and her 2-year-old son (and possible Father #3 to the chick). He has a couple rows of black markings on his head, but none on his wings. (See 3rd picture.) His only body coloring is a patch of blue on his rump. His primary wing feathers are clear. One eye has an iris ring and the other is black. Since his father is split for recessive pied, IIRC, the experts have opined he's a sky blue YF1 spangle combined pied.

I assume a bird can be both spangle and pied?
 

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Is it only YF1 where the face is white when DF?
Susan, isn't colony breeding exciting - you just don't know what to expect?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Is it only YF1 where the face is white when DF?
I think you may be confusing Double Factor Yellow Face Type 1 (white face) with Yellow Face Type 1 Double Factor Spangle (pale yellow face). This chick appears to be the latter.
Susan, isn't colony breeding exciting - you just don't know what to expect?
Quite frankly, I prefer to know who the parents are, because much of my colony is blood-related. When I suspect an egg is the product of a blood-related mating (father-daughter, mother-son, brother-sister, etc.), then I addle the egg immediately.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Attached are pictures of the chick, now 18 days old. Still no blue body color and no black markings.

The mother hen is a cobalt opaline spangle combined pied or dominant pied split for recessive pied. (See 4th and 5th pictures.)
By inference, the father appears to be her son, a sky blue YF1 spangle combined pied or dominant pied. (See 4th and 5th pictures.)
If so, is this chick a YF1 double factor spangle combined pied or dominant pied, and if dominant pied, is s/he split for recessive pied? (Perhaps there's no way to gauge pied mutation(s) until/unless I breed him/her down the road. I'll keep an eye out for iris color, as well.)
 

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it is going to be awfully hard to be sure of the varieties unless you breed from it one day. watch for the iris ring, it would not surprise me if it was a recessive pied df spangle yf, but if the parents are combination pieds then it oculd be dom pied also.... and that is not even considering the opaline possibility...
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Thanks, Tonic! I gather the DF Spangle mutation masks the other mutations. :p

What kind of mutation inferences can we make from the clear primary wing feathers?
 

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the clear flights do not help with anything if the whole bird is clear, whatever has removed all markings and colour has done so with the flights too.
 
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