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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
My next goal for my aviary is to produce a quality lacewings. Lacewings are a mix of both ino (albino or lutino) and cinnamon. I would like to have white or albino lacewings appose to yellow or lutino ones. I would like to have a bird with strong cinnamon markings on the wings and cheek patches. I'm not to concerned about body color but I think a faint blue, violet or grey would be nice.

I haven't found any lacewings in my area so I have decided to breed my own. I have a couple of birds with ino genes and cinnamon genes. I have talked to a couple of people that have bred their own lacewings and have read up on breeding lacewing. I'm still not 100% positive about how to go about doing so but I'm going to take a go at it. I understand that it will take years and years to produce a quality pair of lacewings. But I feel like I'm up to the challenge.

I thought people would be interested in how I will go about breeding this rare and challenging color mutation. This post will cover the entire process. It will be a long process that will take years to finish but I feel it will be educational for both me and everyone else.

So I guess I will start with listing off the birds I plan on breeding.

*FEMALES
Ginger: normal, cinnamon, olive green

Cindy: opaline, cinnamon, blue, grey, violet, yellow face type two


*MALES
Sonya (HORUS): lutino

Zeus: (english) spangle, sky blue, split for ino

Dusty: opaline, sky blue, violet, grey, yellow face type two

Otis: spangle, dominant pied, skyblue, violet maybe split for ino


I will take any advice anyone wants to give me about breeding lacewings. But for now I will go through my breeding plan step by step.

*step one
I will breed these two pairs this fall. Hopefully I will get the chicks I'm looking for.
breed Zeus and Sonya to get one female and one male chick
breed Dusty and Ginger to get one female and one male chick

Then I would have
*FEMALES
ino
cinnamon

*MALES
cinnamon
ino

*step two
breed the ino female to the cinnamon male to produce lacewing males and cinnamon females
breed the ino male to the cinnamon female to produce lacewing males and ino females

Here is my guess on step three
*step three
breed a lacewing male to cinnamon a hen to produce lacewing males and females
breed a lacewing male to ino a hen to produce lacewing males and females

After that I'm lost. Any advise would be great. Thanks to anyone who helps me through this process. I need help with the next step I don't want to inbreed my birds so I will have to use my other birds to ensure this doesn't happen. I am not appose to line breeding but not sure how to mix the genes. I'm not sure how to do this without the lacewing gene disappearing.
 

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hi there,

thanks for sharing, it will be great to follow your progress! i am sure you will get great advice from those who have bred lacewings from scratch before.

once the ino and cinnamon genes are together on a chromosome to give you lacewing they stay together mostly. so i would not worry about losing the combination once you have it...
 

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Sonya looks like a male lutino not female. It would be better to avoid the spangle and pied mutations because when you get lacewings you would want them to show the lacewing markings. If they were also pied or spangle the markings wouldn't show.

The cinnamon and ino genes are both sex-linked so they can only be carried in a split form by the males.

I would mate Sonya with Ginger to produce males that are split for both mutations.

Then mate these males to ino or cinnamon hens. It is possible that you could get lacewing hens in this generation but the gene is often stubborn about combining. Any cinnamon or ino males in this generation have a 50% chance of being split for the other mutation and if they are split they could be used to produce lacewings

You can only get a male lacewing after you have a female
 

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The birds you are using will prove very difficult indeed - namely because you have a lot of genetic 'trash' to get rid of if you wish to produce any sort of decent lacewings. What I mean by trash is this: say for example you want to breed a normal sky blue from a dominant pied grey green hen split blue, and a cinnamon dark green ****. In the nest you get green, grey green, and a dominant pied grey ****. This dominant pied grey **** will be split cinnamon but its your best chance and for all the chicks you got this is your best bet so the rest are essentially useless for your goal. You can use the dominant pied grey **** as its closer to what you want but you still will be hoping not to get cinnamon, grey or dominant pied in its future chicks. Its this need to discard the genes (babies) you dont want in order to get closer to what you do want that i refer to as genetic 'trash' or wastage.

Grey, opaline, spangle, dominant pied and even violet will all play havoc with any plans to breed a decent lacewing. Having said that your hens are actually good, its the cocks that are wanting! Your time factors would be greatly reduced if you had or could find an ino **** and a cinnamon ****.

Cinnamon **** x lutino hen (sonya) would produce cocks split for cinnamon + ino.
Ino **** x cinnamon hen ( ginger) would also produce cocks split for cinnamon + ino.

Such a **** from sonya could then be paired to ginger, and gingers son to sonya to produce 'roughly' 25% normal, 25% cinnamon, 25% ino, 25% lacewing. I say 'roughly' because there is actually only a 30-40% chance that there will be a genetic crossover between the two genes. This crossover ONLY occurs within the male genes and it is their lacewing daughters who then become valuable as they will produce cinnamonXino (cinnamon fused with ino on the same chromosome) split cocks.

However. If you cannot find an ino or cinnamon **** then lets see what we can do...

Pair 1:

Zeus and Sonya - The goal here would be to produce your own ino MALES which will later be paired to a cinnamon hen.. Zeus has spangle which is unfortunate as you wont know if any male ino's he produces carry spangle also. This may not show up until you test breed this (or these) boys with a cinnamon hen later.

Pair2 :

Zeus would also be the best bird you have to pair with ginger currently (less genetic wastage in regards to producing good lacewings).
However, if you cannot or do not wish to do this pairing I would suggest Otis because Dusty has far too much genetic wastage and you do not want his opaline running rampant in the hens or cocks (split for opaline). Note that opaline can also fuse with ino OR cinnamon (and sometimes both in vary vary rare cases) so you do not want to reduce your chances of fusing cinnamon+ino by adding an opaline gene in the mix.

therefore pair2 = otis x ginger. The aim here is to produce cocks split cinnamon and hopefully ino, but in this case you cannot tell if otis is split ino unless it shows up in his daughters and you wont know if his sons get it until you test breed them. If you can get an albino **** your SO much closer to getting lacewings its not even funny!

In actual fact, if you can get cocks split cinnamon+ino it doesnt matter what hen you pair them to as long as they are normals - no hens with grey, violet, pied, spangle or other genes that will mess up the lacewing markings.
 

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Additional:

I didnt even look at sonya's picture! I was assuming you had the sexing right, but I agree with Nev - sonya looks like a he! That makes it quite simple. Breed sonya x ginger as nev suggested. The cocks will all be cinnamon+ino - then you can breed them to good normal hens as I said and bing bang boom - you have a 30% chance of crossover. Factoring in the 50% gender ratio, you actually have only a 15% chance (30% crossover x 50% chance of getting a hen = 15% chance of cinnamon+ino hen or one in 7 chicks).
 

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Thank you Budgiebreeder11 for opening a topic on lacewings

After reading many posts in the forum (mostly for nev90 and Guthwulf) and articles about lacewings I would say the following:

So simply as my understanding I would say in order to get lacewings:

Step 1: Ino **** X Cinnamon hen = 100% split cocks for both Ino/cinnamon

bred one the split **** above to a cinnamon hen or Ino hen:
Step 2: Split **** Ino/Cinnamon X Cinnamon hen (or Ino hen) = Lacewing hens (probability is little and you will have to be patiant about it)

In order to get Lacewing cocks, bred lacewing hens to a **** that is split for both Ino/Cinnamon
Step 3: Split **** Ino/Cinnamon X Lacewing hen = Lacewing **** & hens


I hope my understanding is right, please correct me if anything is wrong:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Wow some great information guys. I will have to rethink my breeding plans but I knew that would probably happen. Thank you so much for all of the info I will look over it all with a fine tooth comb and determine what the best breeding pairs would be. As for Sonya... his/her cere has changed it is now tanish blue with tan nostril rings. But I was planing on having a gender test done just to make sure. Thanks again everyone.
 

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hi all,

dean, are you sure it is 30% recombination.... i thought i read it was more like 3%?? although 30% sounds much more promising!
 

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hi all,

dean, are you sure it is 30% recombination.... i thought i read it was more like 3%?? although 30% sounds much more promising!
According to the article I was recently reading yep :) It sounds in line with other articles I have read also if memory serves. Here is a snippet:

The phenomenon of crossing-over in Budgerigars was already discussed by Dr. Taylor and Cyril Warner in 1961. By analyzing results from normal/cinnamon-opaline x cinnamon-opaline matings, involving 53 birds and counting crossovers of both sexes, and by adding the results from normal/cinnamon-opaline x normal matings, involving 29 birds, counting hens only, they obtained the following results: 26 crossovers in a total of 82 birds. The ratio of crossovers to the total number of offspring is known as the crossover value (c.o.v.) which in this case is 26 to 82. Expressing this as a fraction we have 26/82, that is 31.7%, roughly 1:3.
As taken from this source: http://www.euronet.nl/users/hnl/sexchrom.htm

The author of the article then went on to do his own experiment and came up with a 40% success rate in his birds, albeit he had less chicks which would affect the accuracy of his results. Factor in that they only count HENS, you would have to half the expected results from roughly one in 3.3 chicks to 1 in 7 (6.6 rounded up) chicks if you include both sexes.
 

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Many breeders have reported a much lower percentage of crossovers with cinnamon & ino than those obtained from cinnamon & opaline. A figure just above 3% is often quoted

From 2 males that were split for both cinnamon & ino paired to cinnamon hens I got 3 lacewing hens. They each had two rounds. A 3rd male didn't produce any lacewings but he only had one clutch
 

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the cross-over rate for cinnamon and opaline is not necessarily the same as for cinnamon and ino. if the genes are closer together then it is less likely to occur.

i think they use cross over rate to work out how far to map where the genes are on the chromosome.
 

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the cross-over rate for cinnamon and opaline is not necessarily the same as for cinnamon and ino. if the genes are closer together then it is less likely to occur.

i think they use cross over rate to work out how far to map where the genes are on the chromosome.
I was going to mention that very fact but I had to log off the computer for a while until now. I will do some reading into the location and proximity of the cinnamon-ino genes and crossover rates. I know there is an article on it somewhere, I remember reading it.
 

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Hi guys,

I am going to start with two pairs

I am not sure about the cinnamon, should I get normal cinnamons and avoid other mutations?

first pair YF1 Albino **** (I already have it) and am looking for a nice cinnamon hen

second pair I am thinking of a cinnamon **** and a lutino hen or the other way around

I am going to the market tommorrow, I am not sure I will get what I want


ammmmmm I really hope to get a cinnamon violate hen:D
 

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Many breeders have reported a much lower percentage of crossovers with cinnamon & ino than those obtained from cinnamon & opaline. A figure just above 3% is often quoted

From 2 males that were split for both cinnamon & ino paired to cinnamon hens I got 3 lacewing hens. They each had two rounds. A 3rd male didn't produce any lacewings but he only had one clutch
How many hens did they produce total? (of which 3 were lacewing)
 

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How many hens did they produce total? (of which 3 were lacewing)
From the 3 cocks, split to cinnamon & ino, mated to cinnamon hens there were:
3 lacewing hens
7 ino hens
5 cinnamon hens
7 cinnamon males
10 normal males

That was a better percentage of lacewings than I was expecting but to accurately quote percentages you would need to involve several hundred birds. Most of the reports I have read didn't involve enough birds to draw any accurate conclusions
 

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Hi guys,

I am going to start with two pairs

I am not sure about the cinnamon, should I get normal cinnamons and avoid other mutations?

first pair YF1 Albino **** (I already have it) and am looking for a nice cinnamon hen

second pair I am thinking of a cinnamon **** and a lutino hen or the other way around

I am going to the market tommorrow, I am not sure I will get what I want

ammmmmm I really hope to get a cinnamon violate hen:D
please guys any advise or opinion will be a great help for me.:)
 

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Hi guys,

I am going to start with two pairs

I am not sure about the cinnamon, should I get normal cinnamons and avoid other mutations?

first pair YF1 Albino **** (I already have it) and am looking for a nice cinnamon hen

second pair I am thinking of a cinnamon **** and a lutino hen or the other way around

I am going to the market tommorrow, I am not sure I will get what I want

ammmmmm I really hope to get a cinnamon violate hen:D
Looks like you are on the right track. It doesn't matter which way round the first pairs are because only the male chicks will be split for both mutations. It is best to avoid other mutations if possible, particularly the dilute mutations. The different shades of blue or green (or violet & grey) don't matter because you may not be able to see them on a lacewing anyway. Also once you have some lacewings it would be easy to add yellow face, opaline or whatever you like
 
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