Talk Budgies Forums banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 47 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
679 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I know that in Budgie genetics green is dominant over blue, but I was wondering if blue is dominant over other colors such as if you have an all white bird?
Or would it be two recessive traits and hence you'd get a split bunch of colored babies?

Genetics is my favorite subject in Biology, and I'm trying to get a handle on Budgie genetics! (I'm interested in breeding Budgies in maybe a year or two) So far I think I've read every sticky thread in the Breeding section so please don't just tell me to go read those, lol.

Thanks guys!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,519 Posts
I'll try and explain it to you, hopefully I make sense. Things usually make perfect sense in my head but I can never get them across through writing or even words :eek:

So we have two base colors we differentiate them by green series budgies which have a yellow base color and blue series budgies that have a white base color.

Each series has different dark factors which make the different shades you see such as olive green and skyblue. So basically we only have green budgies and blue budgies. Yellow is green and White is blue (don't know if that makes sense?)

So yes, green is dominant over blue. To produce a white bird a mutation that removes color would be needed such as pied, or albino which would work the same way on a green budgie but making it yellow instead of white.

I know you said you read the stickies, but have you read the one in my siggy? the one titled "Basic Color Expectations" I think it made a lot more sense when I wrote it on there! :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
679 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
So what Budgie mutations would you have to breed together to get an all white or mostly white bird? (not necessarily Albino) Also, I don't think I completely understand pieds yet.
If you bred a blue bird with a white bird (non-albino white, can't remember exactly what it was called. Grey blue?) would you get split birds or would there be less blue on the offspring or?
I'm pretty sure I read your sticky but I'll double check to be sure! ^_^
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
882 Posts
It's not so much blue and green as white and yellow. A blue bird is blue on white and a green bird is blue on yellow to make green. Lots of things can make a "clear" bird which is a bird that only has it's white or yellow base color. I have some dark eyed clears which combine recessive pied and clearflight pied to remove all the color. A double factor spangle is also all clear and then there is an actual albino gene. With the albino gene a solid white bird is called albino and a solid yellow lutino. The eye color and iris ring can tell you which gene or combination is causing you to have an all clear budgie.

Most of these mutations are recessive, except the clearflight pied, so both birds have to carry it. You will get clear birds or not clear birds. The color will not dilute any by mixing. It's just there or not there. In the case of dark eyed clears you could get some pied birds where they have some clear feathers (yellow or white feathers) and the other feathers will be the normal body color. With spangles 1 copy of the gene changes the markings on the bird and 2 copies (double factor) makes them clear. The colored feathers will be the same shade as they would have been without spangle or pied. A different set of genes determines the shade of the color.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
679 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Ahhhh ok, that makes a bit more sense.
And Corina, your sticky makes sense to me for dark factor genes but for some reason my mind can't convert that to make sense with the yellow/white thing, lol.
I think it'd make more sense if there was an example I could see with a punnett square in regards to making a bird have just their base color. :|
I'm definitely a visual learner!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
679 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ok, so I think I understand this more after looking over the Punnet square sticky again.
So to get a bird with no markings/all one color (yellow or white) you just have to choose traits/mutations that either don't show (are recessive) or are dominant over the trait that creates those markings/color.
For example, two single factor spangles together, or a recessive pied with a clearwing, etc?
Either that or breed Lutino or Albinos.
I hope I make sense, lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
882 Posts
A clearwing would have to carry recessive pied to breed with a recessive pied and make a dark eyed clear. 2 single factor or visually spangles would produce 25% double factor spangles that are clear, 50% single factor with spangle markings, and 25% plain birds with no spangle gene.

There are punnet squares for everything but yellow face on http://www.***************/colorsguide.html .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,519 Posts
Ok, so I think I understand this more after looking over the Punnet square sticky again.
So to get a bird with no markings/all one color (yellow or white) you just have to choose traits/mutations that either don't show (are recessive) or are dominant over the trait that creates those markings/color.
For example, two single factor spangles together, or a recessive pied with a clearwing, etc?
Either that or breed Lutino or Albinos.
I hope I make sense, lol.
You made much more sense than I did :giggle:

But yes that's exactly it :D

Solid color mutations which can be either white or yellow are Dark Eyed Clears and Double Factor Spangles. Then you have Lutinos and Albinos.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
679 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Ahhh, ok thanks! That make sense. :')
Can you have a bird that is both dominant or recessive pied AND spangle??
*edit- I'm guessing not since they are all genes for wing pattern/marking?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
679 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Oooh, one other question on top of that.
If you breed two single factor dominant pieds you get 25% recessive pieds, 50%, single factor, and 25% double factor?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
882 Posts
Dominant pied and recessive pied are 2 different genes the same as spangle is it's own gene. If you have single factor dominant pied or recessive pied by itself the bird will probably have enough markings left on it's wings to see spangle. If you have both dominant and recessive pied together or double factor dominant pied the bird may or may not have enough markings and color left on the wings to see spangle.

A dominant pied is just that, dominant and recessive pied is a recessive gene. 1 copy of the dominant pied gene will get you dominant pied so only 1 parent needs the gene and if bred to a parent with no pied genes half would still be pied. If you breed 2 single factor dominant pieds you get 25% double factor dominant pieds, 50% single factor dominant pieds, and 25% birds with no pied gene.

Recessive pied requires 2 copies to see the gene. Birds with one copy might have a marking on the back of their heads but otherwise will not show pied markings. Both parents need at least 1 copy of the gene to make recessive pieds so that at least some of the offspring get 2 copies and show it. If you breed recessive pied to recessive pied you will get only recessive pied and if you breed recessive pied to a bird with no recessive pied genes you will get offspring that carry it but do not show it except possibly that mark on the back of the head.

You can combine dominant and recessive pied. The bird comes out with lots of clear feathers but still have some markings.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
679 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Ahhh, ok. I understand now (I'm pretty sure!).
I'm trying to figure out which genes affect each other (like pied, one showing over the other). But it's becoming less confusing now.
Thanks! :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
It's not so much blue and green as white and yellow. A blue bird is blue on white and a green bird is blue on yellow to make green. Lots of things can make a "clear" bird which is a bird that only has it's white or yellow base color. I have some dark eyed clears which combine recessive pied and clearflight pied to remove all the color. A double factor spangle is also all clear and then there is an actual albino gene. With the albino gene a solid white bird is called albino and a solid yellow lutino. The eye color and iris ring can tell you which gene or combination is causing you to have an all clear budgie.

Most of these mutations are recessive, except the clearflight pied, so both birds have to carry it. You will get clear birds or not clear birds. The color will not dilute any by mixing. It's just there or not there. In the case of dark eyed clears you could get some pied birds where they have some clear feathers (yellow or white feathers) and the other feathers will be the normal body color. With spangles 1 copy of the gene changes the markings on the bird and 2 copies (double factor) makes them clear. The colored feathers will be the same shade as they would have been without spangle or pied. A different set of genes determines the shade of the color.
The highlighted section of your statement is not correct. Budgies do not have a blue pigment to combine with yellow to produce green. Budgies have only two pigments Melanin (black) and Psittacine (yellow). Combine those two pigments with structure and light and you get green. any alteration to structure or pigment with show as a change in variety. Example: A green bird whose loses the yellow pigment from the cortex of the feather will be blue.
 

·
Member of the Month April 2011
Joined
·
5,435 Posts
Oooh, one other question on top of that.
If you breed two single factor dominant pieds you get 25% recessive pieds, 50%, single factor, and 25% double factor?
This webpage http://www.***************/gen_dompied.html has the answer, which is 25% Double-Factor Dominant Pied, 50% Dominant Pied and 25% Normal.

A pair of dominant pieds can only produce a recessive pied chick if both parents are split to recessive pied.

Each of the mutations/colors listed on this site http://www.***************/colorsguide.html has a link to genetics.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
679 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
This webpage http://www.***************/gen_dompied.html has the answer, which is 25% Double-Factor Dominant Pied, 50% Dominant Pied and 25% Normal.

A pair of dominant pieds can only produce a recessive pied chick if both parents are split to recessive pied.

Each of the mutations/colors listed on this site http://www.***************/colorsguide.html has a link to genetics.
Thanks! I realize now that there would be no Recessives in that equation unless they were split, lol. It can't just spring out of nowhere! :eek:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
882 Posts
From budgie place:
The original budgie variety is yellow-based with blue feather structure in the body feathers, resulting in the classic green coloration of the main body (yellow+blue=green).
Either they have a yellow pigment base or they lack a yellow pigment base and are therefore white-based.
In yellow-based budgies the blue in the body feathers combines with the yellow base pigment, which results in a bright green, the most common variety. In white-based budgies there is no yellow base pigment, so the blue structure of the body feathers results in bright blue coloration.
Thus white with blue to make blue or yellow with blue to make green.
 

·
DEACTIVATED ACCOUNT
Joined
·
16,073 Posts
Yes you can have a bird that is both Dominant and Recessive pied Visually and yes it can also be a spangle - each Pied is different so the amount of markings will vary so some you may not see the Spangle markings and would know by breeding it to a non spangle bird

This is my Dominant Recessive pied She is both visually

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
679 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
How would a visually dominant/recessive bird work since Dominant pied is just that, dominant? o_O

*edit- obviously it does happen, but it doesn't make sense to me that a recessive gene would show as well as the dominant one! My brain hurts. >_<
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
882 Posts
Not all genes interact. You can have 3 recessive genes show at the same time or 2 dominants and 2 recessives. They are not all connected. It's only genes that are on the same locus, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_(genetics) , that can't show at the same time or of course if you have certain genes together they can hide one another. Like the pied genes erasing the wing markings so you can't see spangle.

So dominant pied is it's own locus denoted by the letter T-using budgieplace's letter designations for the genes. TT or Tt means they have dominant pied and show it. tt means they don't have dominant pied and don't show it. It has nothing to do with recessive pied. Recessive pied is on another locus denoted by the letter r. RR is no recessive pied. Rr is carrying or split for recessive pied but it does not show and rr is showing recessive pied. So if we have a dominant and recessive pied bird it would be T*rr. The * means the other gene of the pair can be anything on that locus without changing the phenotype (how the animal looks) or it's unknown. Now if we use S for spangle our bird could be T*S*rr. A dominant pied, spangled, recessive pied all visible. None of those genes are connected. Whether you have T or t has nothing to do with whether you have R or r and S or s. They are each on a different locus. The mother contributes one R or r, S or s, and T or t while the father contributes the other to make the pairs. That's how you get your punnet squares. In equine genetics we did punnet squares with 5-8 gene pairs at a time. You'd have a code like AaBBCCDD x aaBbCcchdd (mother x father) and have to write out all the possible gene combinations and the phenotype of each combination.

Sometimes you can have more than 2 genes to a locus. Dilution genes in budgies are 4 genes on the same locus. You have normal-C, greywing-cg, clearwing-cw, and dilute-cd. Genes still only come in pairs so each bird only has 2 of those genes and contributes 1 randomly to it's offspring. CC is plain colored and dominant so if you have a C the others do not show irregardless of what the second gene is in the pair. Next comes greywing so if you have greywing plus greywing, clearwing or dilute (cgcg, cgcw or cgcd) then you have a greywing and don't see the other gene. Then comes clearwing so if you have only clearwing (cwcw) or clearwing and dilute (cwcd) you get clearwing. Last is dilute so the only way to get a dilute is to have cdcd. If normal, greywing, or clearwing are there you don't see dilute.

That's a complicated locus without a simple dominant/recessive gene set. All those genes can be paired with any of the other genes we mentioned because they each have their own locus. What is on the locus for dilute has nothing to do with the locus for dominant pied. It does dilute the body color or markings to various extent but it does not alter what actual genes are on the locus for dark factor so we can have a cobalt greywing that looks lighter than other cobalts but it still has the genes for cobalt and the genes for greywing not the genes for skyblue.

For example if we go through several of the genetics on budgieplace (yellow/white base, dark factor, grey, violet, dilution, spangle, and pied genes in that order) my skyblue greywing in my avatar would be bbddggvvcg*ssttR*pp . A white based bird (bb) with no dark factor (dd), no grey(gg), no violet(vv), greywing diluting the color with 2nd gene unknown(cg*), no spangle(ss), no dominant pied(tt), no visible recessive pied with 2nd gene unknown(R*), and no clearflight pied (pp). The unknowns mean he could be carrying a second greywing gene, a clearwing gene, or a dilute gene and he could be carrying recessive pied. You have to breed them to find out unless you have a color pedigree which might solve some of the unknowns.
 
1 - 20 of 47 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top