Talk Budgies Forums banner
1 - 20 of 54 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hi,
I asked about my pied female a cuple of days ago, but the diskussion is locked so I cant continue in that thread.

Anyways, the female look DF Dominant pied, but three of four chicks look normal. So I’m wondering if she can be a combination of SF Dominant pied and Clearflight, or if there is any other pied that can be misstaken for DF Dominant pied?

This is very bad pictures of her parents, the yellow and the blue.
My female and her siblings are in the pictures as well. Three are pied and one is normal.

Can you guess the mutations of the parents?





This is the chicks that my female got with a normal male.
The first is some kind of pied, but the rest looks normal.





This is the female and her partner.




 

·
Registered
Joined
·
195 Posts
Yes, a budgie can be both Clearflight Pied and Dominant Pied both of which are dominant. While SF and DF Dominant Pied look very different from each other, there is no notable distinction between SF and DF Clearflight Pied.

By definition, all pieds are variable and no two are identical, whether they be recessives, dominants or clearflights. Clearflights are the ones that are most likely to pass as normals if the pied markings are not fully expressed, which is very common. Some clearflghts have no clear flights at all and just a feather or two of pied patch at the back of the head/neck. But if you breed them, they can produce fully expressed clearflight pieds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Yes, a budgie can be both Clearflight Pied and Dominant Pied both of which are dominant. While SF and DF Dominant Pied look very different from each other, there is no notable distinction between SF and DF Clearflight Pied.

By definition, all pieds are variable and no two are identical, whether they be recessives, dominants or clearflights. Clearflights are the ones that are most likely to pass as normals if the pied markings are not fully expressed, which is very common. Some clearflghts have no clear flights at all and just a feather or two of pied patch at the back of the head/neck. But if you breed them, they can produce fully expressed clearflight pieds.
Ok! When I checked again it actually looks like two of the chicks could have a pied feather or two in the back of the neck.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
195 Posts
It's an interesting genetic case study. We know your hen is DF Dominant Pied and if she is also DF Clearlfight Pied, which this breeding seems to indicate, then on average this mating would produce 50% SF Dominant Pieds and 50% SF Clearflight Pieds. "On average' being the key phrase.

Old timers, when they encountered an otherwise normal-looking bird that had a pied patch on the back of the neck, they would say that that was an indication of the bird 'carrying' recessive pied. That never made sense to me, let alone it flies in the face of the laws of genetics. Those birds were no doubt Clearlflight Pieds with incomplete expression of the pied. This phenomenon is well documented in several of the classic books on budgie genetics but somehow the knowledge never went mainstream in the fancy.

The great variability of all the pied mutations is governed by modifying genetic factors that have yet to be understood. A striking example is my avatar. That mutation is called, by the fancy, Dutch Pied. Fanciers have complicated matters by giving names to many of these variations which are not reliably reproducible. Now it is known that the so called "Dutch Pied" is a rare expression of... Clearflight Pied.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
It's an interesting genetic case study. We know your hen is DF Dominant Pied and if she is also DF Clearlfight Pied, which this breeding seems to indicate, then on average this mating would produce 50% SF Dominant Pieds and 50% SF Clearflight Pieds. "On average' being the key phrase.

Old timers, when they encountered an otherwise normal-looking bird that had a pied patch on the back of the neck, they would say that that was an indication of the bird 'carrying' recessive pied. That never made sense to me, let alone it flies in the face of the laws of genetics. Those birds were no doubt Clearlflight Pieds with incomplete expression of the pied. This phenomenon is well documented in several of the classic books on budgie genetics but somehow the knowledge never went mainstream in the fancy.

The great variability of all the pied mutations is governed by modifying genetic factors that have yet to be understood. A striking example is my avatar. That mutation is called, by the fancy, Dutch Pied. Fanciers have complicated matters by giving names to many of these variations which are not reliably reproducible. Now it is known that the so called "Dutch Pied" is a rare expression of... Clearflight Pied.
Ok, but can she be SF Dominant pied and Clearflight? Because the oldest chick is looking almost like her, but it can’t be DF Dominant.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
195 Posts
Yes, I should have added that to my post above. That mating could produce SF Clearflight SF Dominant Pieds, a bird with both pied mutations in single factor. We seldom speak in those terms when we describe a mutation for a particular budgie since it is just about impossible to determine if a SF Dominant Pied is also Clearflight Pied unless you breed it since Clearflight features are some of the component features of SF Dominant Pied.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Yes, I should have added that to my post above. That mating could produce SF Clearflight SF Dominant Pieds, a bird with both pied mutations in single factor. We seldom speak in those terms when we describe a mutation for a particular budgie since it is just about impossible to determine if a SF Dominant Pied is also Clearflight Pied unless you breed it since Clearflight features are some of the component features of SF Dominant Pied.
Sorry for all my questions, but it some things that I don’t fully understand.

If my female is DF Dominant pied, should not all chicks have been SF Dominant pied? It makes more sense to me that the female is SF Dominant+Clearfligt.

But I don’t know much about genetics, I just juse a genetic calculator online. But maby it is not 100% correct, because it gives me another result than expected when the viloet gene is involved. But that is a different diskussion.

Anyways, this is the result I get when I combine DF Dominant + Clearflight:



And this is the result for SF Dominant + Clearflight:



I read somewhere that Dominant pied and Clearflight increase the pied characteristics for both mutations, so maybe thats why my female look like DF Dominant, but actually is not?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
195 Posts
I cannot speak to the accuracy of your calculator since I don't know the system, but you didn't factor in DF Clearflight Pied. You used SF. The only way you could have had the chicks you had when one parent is normal was if the other parent, your hen, was double factor for both dominant and clearflight. Interesting that your system calls clearflight pied Dutch pied. I've not heard that in years.

All that said, I've been asking a related question for two decades about this--a question that relates to your interesting case-- and have never heard a satisfactory answer: when two dominant pied mutations appear in the same bird is there a hierarchy of dominance when that bird is bred? On paper they should all be SF Dominant SF Clearflight combined. But the two other examples of matings I've known about did not play out that way: there were three outcomes --Sf Dominant, SF Clearlight, and SF of each Combined. This probably speaks to how pieds react to each other that is yet to be fully understood. And pieds clearly do react to each other, witness Dark Eyed Clears--the result of Clearflight and Recessive Pied hooking up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
195 Posts
wcmburke has given good information. There are still many gene interactions in budgies that are not fully understood, so unfortunately for complicated cases like this it’s more like an educated guess 👍🏻
Indeed, especially when we're talking pieds. @JennyKroll, do please keep us posted about the progress of the chicks as they color up. Virtually nothing has been written about this sort of mating involving DF Clearlfight and DF Dominant Pied and your experience could really be enlightening.

FYI, I found an old entry in my notes from around 2008, from an Australian source if I recall, that a mating of SF Clearflight to SF Dominant Pied will produce 25% SF Clearflight, 25% SF Dominant Pied, 25% Combined Clearflight & Dominant, and 25% Normals. That makes sense and would suggest the two dominant mutations are co-dominant. And the breeder was talking from experience. But as I said, I can find little about what happens when Combined Pieds are bred let alone when DF Combineds are involved.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Indeed, especially when we're talking pieds. @JennyKroll, do please keep us posted about the progress of the chicks as they color up. Virtually nothing has been written about this sort of mating involving DF Clearlfight and DF Dominant Pied and your experience could really be enlightening.

FYI, I found an old entry in my notes from around 2008, from an Australian source if I recall, that a mating of SF Clearflight to SF Dominant Pied will produce 25% SF Clearflight, 25% SF Dominant Pied, 25% Combined Clearflight & Dominant, and 25% Normals. That makes sense and would suggest the two dominant mutations are co-dominant. And the breeder was talking from experience. But as I said, I can find little about what happens when DFs are involved.
Yes, I will update with pictures later on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
The 2 youngest is starting to get some more feathers now. The older has a small pied spot in the neck and the youngest have 2 pied feathers.

I can see that they have a green tinge on the feathers on the wings, where it should have been pied, but I don’t know if it usually looks like that in their age. But it is hard to see in the pictures.




This is the oldest.





 
1 - 20 of 54 Posts
Top