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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi All TB Genetic experts,

As the post name suggest, and following recent TB posts I'm a bit confused with the Dil-gene and it's working ito visual, hidden, split, its traits, the dominant, incomplete dominant and co-dominance behaviour of this multiple-allele gene's working?

So hoping I understand this better/correctly now....but need to check with the TB experts.

I'll relate to recent TB posts, and web-sites within each enquiry/statement below:

STATEMENT(S):

1) The dil-gw / (split) dil-cw combination works different ito it's dominance than the dil-gw / dil combination; whereas (until recently I incorrectly thought the latter would show both dil-gw and dil visually, based on the FBC Greywing visual behaviour of which the former is an example)...

...the "dominance" is thus "in-complete" between the dil-gw and dil-cw allele's in so far that the strong-body colour (of the dil-cw) over-shadows the dil-gw visually!

Refer extract "The formula dil gw / dil cw demands an explanation. A bird having this genotype shows the FBC greywing phenotype because the full bodycolor of the clearwing dominates the diluted bodycolor of the intermediate greywing, on the other hand the grey wings of the latter mentioned dominates the "white" or "yellow" wingcolor of the clearwing. This is not surprizing because multiple alleles always act additionally towards one another [4,14]."

...from website: http://www.euronet.nl/users/hnl/dilute.htm
, provided within post http://talkbudgies.com/showthread.php?t=83655 by PalStud

NOTE (web-site link):
Article Copyright:
Inte Onsman - MUTAVI Research & Advice Group
posted for educational/research purposes only

2) This dil-gw / dil co-existence (visually) not being possible was also noted in the post by "deleted user" under TB post: http://talkbudgies.com/archive/index.php/t-62668.html

….wherein it was given that, quote: "a dilute can't be a grey wing too "….as well as...
"Mode of Inheritance:
Pure Greywings are genetically recessive to most varieties, but co-dominant with Clearwings and dominant over Dilutes (yellows and whites). They can be in combination with all varieties of budgerigar except the Dilute. In their most rudimentary state,.."


…this further explained under very informative web-site link: http://www.bcv.asn.au/Greywing.htm

3) Further this fact was emphasized by nev90 in TB post:
[nev90
11-10-2010, 03:42 AM

Edit #7810347083147103: "Romeo might also be a dilute or a greywing, or both!"]

..where Nev90 stated in reply to edit: "Budgies cannot be both greywing and dilute at the same time. Greywing is dominant to dilute"

...refer TB Post: http://talkbudgies.com/archive/index.php/t-62668.html

4) This aspect is also noted under web-site:
http://www.budgie-info.com/alleles.html

"This means that normal is dominant over all the others, greywing and clearwing are incompletely dominant to each other, clearwing is dominant over dilute, and dilute is recessive to everything."

NOTE (web-site link):
Article Copyright:
Toni Poad - Budgie-Info.com

----now for my questions---

QUESTIONS:
a) Why would the dil-gw/dil-cw be "incomplete-dominant" visually & referred to as intermediate, whereas the dil-gw / dil & dil-cw / dil aren't…any particular reason?....or is it just the way it is?...

b) How "diluted" must the body colour shade become to be a real "dilute" or are other aspects to be considered?...as many a "Dilute"-guess turns out to be "greywing" having a much more "suffused" body colour than the 50% that would normally apply to Greywings? Refer Owlet's Greywing:
YF T1-Greywing only Owlet.JPG

Same goes for my hen called "Cloudy" - until now I thought she was a "YF T1 Dilute Sky-Blue Greywing"…maybe this later knowledge puts her at just a "YF T1 Sky-blue Greywing"…correct?, and if not - how do we tell difference in this case?
Budgy02-2011_0022e1s.jpg

July-2010_0085e1s.jpg

c) What is the interaction between Dil /dil-gw and the Dil / dil-cw combinations? (note Dil -capital "D" - for the highest ranking "Normal wild type gene"- this having normal strength body colour) or wouldn't this Dil gene factor be present in all the Dil & dil combinations?...and won't these 2 dil-combos be "near identical" given strong body colour?

d) Does this Dil-gene actually exist "outside of the 'wild', thus observable in the breeding aviary?"...for us to consider in 1st place?

e) Real problem is to actually distinguish between them dil-combinations…does this mean all visual aspects such as the:

.. "cheek-patch",
wing-markings",
"strength of grey" in flights,
grey- (ground-) colour in tail, and
"depth of body colour/shade" .....

.....need to be evaluated in combination?

That's why I'm giving some photo samples for the experts/members to ponder over IN NEXT POST…. as hopefully these (& other pictures by you) will clarify the above aspect(s)....==>

Thanks for your time!
jacodK

PS - CAN'T SOME TB GENE EXPERT CREATE A PHOTO-PLATE RECORD OF DIL- BIRDS, WITH INSETS (CLOSE-UP / BLOW-UP) OF PARTICULAR VISUAL CHARATERISTICS (e.g. wing markings) HIGHLIGHTED THEREIN?...it can then become valuable TB sticky!
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
...--continued-....

Here are some photo samples (do add yours!):

Bird 1 ("Rain-drop") - I think TB advice was FBC Greywing?
Budgy11-2010_0078e1E.jpg

Bird 2 ("Color-wash") - again FBC Greywing (apart from the Opaline and YF T1 & T2 genes)
Budgy11-2010_0117e1s.jpg

Bird 3 ("Blue-Rain") - just Opaline Spangle? (given non-grey "clear flights")
Budgy0811_0013e1s.jpg

Bird 4 ("Sunset") - again Greywing only, apart from Opaline (coming from dad)
Budgy-1211_0029e1s.jpg

Bird 5 ("Dusk") -again Greywing Opaline only-any "dilute"?
Budgy0811_0076e1s.jpg

Thanks for your time!
jacodk
 

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Some of the explanations you quoted make a simple concept sound complicated

The problem with creating a 'PHOTO-PLATE RECORD" is that there are a large range of shades that extend gradually from very pale dilutes to dark greywings. Also the quality of the photo can easily make the same bird fit into a different group if you see it in a different photo. This makes it very difficult to know where one type stops and the other starts

Originally dilutes were almost white (or yellow) and greywings were about half way between dilutes and normals so distinguishing between them was easy. The longer a mutation is around the greater the variations become
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Thanks once again Nev90!

...and apologies, if I made it sound complicated...

...SO (if I may summarise my understanding - correct me pse where I'm wrong):

a) FIRSTLY (visual view of "true-dil / single dil-type" birds):-
Does this mean that most dil-birds will be "likely in the genetic ranking order", which in turn means the probability is most likely to be:

1) Greywings - DILUTED IN BOTH BODY COLOUR & WING MARKINGS, and if any of the below PRINCIPAL CHARACTERISTICS, aren't EXACTLY PRESENT VISUALLY?;
2) Clearwings - MUST HAVE THE STRONG (almost 'normal') body colour & 'clear wings' (ALBEIT NOT AS 'CLEAR' as years gone by!)?
3) Dilutes (can I say 'whites' / 'yellows' - old terminology) - body colour must be very close to "clear" base colour - thus HEAVILY SUFFUSED / DILUTED....

b) SECONDLY (visual view of "combination" dil-genes type birds):-

1) "co-dominant" means THAT IN ONLY THE "dil-cw & dil-gw" DIL-Combination birds WILL THERE BE VISUAL ASPECTS FROM BOTH the otherwise "dil-cw" ONLY & "dil-gw" ONLY type birds?...
.....this 'one-and-only' visual "dil-combination" bird referred to as "FULL BODY COLOUR GREYWING (FBC greywing)"? ;
2) any other "combination" between other DIL-genes will be visually NOT APPARENT (only by test breeding)...and WILL follow the GENE RANKING ORDER ito visually presence, with the more recessive gene being hidden?

I really hope this sounds better/correct?

Are these hens then all DIL-gw (greywing)..? [except maybe the 2 x FBC Greywing (birds 1 & 2) and the other 1 x Opaline-Spangle types (bird 3)]
Sunset (bird 4) seems to have "opaline" & "non-spangle" wing markings...given the "body colour" is situated to the edge of feather - with grey replacing the "base colour", unlike "normal spangle-opaline" birds where the "body colouration" is to the edge & "base colour" (white/yellow) is to the inner-part of feather?...will this be the greywing effects (base-colour replacement on feather?)...thus, still making it an opaline-spangle, just with dil-gw added?

Thanks again

jacodK

PS- I'll post more DIL-bird pictures (natural light) in another post to see if there are any variations from Dil-gw (greywing) in such birds?!
 
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