Photos from today
early fatty liver issue, we need help please!
We have recently had B’s annual well visit and have learned that he might have early fatty liver disease.
Just as a background I want to say the visit was so nice and birdie did very well. He has a sweet and curious personality, and I was so glad we give him budgie hugs ( holding him lightly in our hands) and handle him from time to time. He had no problem with the nice vet petting him and then being picked up, it went so smoothly. He was nervous and very clingy, but did very well.
I am quite surprised by a few things. His blood test was great and his fecal was great as well, no issues at all. Plasma clear. He was diagnosed with early liver disease based on his beak condition. I took some pictures today and compared them to picd I have from when we first got Bisbee and to me they look similar.
And yet the vet who examined him a year ago ( same clinic, different vet) did not mention any liver issues ( beak looks very similar to me).
His weight was I think 31 or 32 g then, is 33 g now.
He is active and bright and seems to have no issues at all( to me).
Mid December he did have an episode of running free in our room and going straight for the big window, it took him a couple round a rounds to calm down enough for us to catch the poor guy. He never acted differently after that though and I do not think his beak suffered.
Big part of vet visit ended up being his diet. I think I first heard that he should be having very little seed, like 1 tsp. To that I said that he is having more because I do not see him having much of his fruit pellets. The vet then said it is okay to have 1 tablespoon for now and that we should work back from that and work to decrease seed/ increase pellets.
I came home and measured exactly what we give him. We give him no more that 1 tablespoon of seed mix ( vita blend and harvey’s combined, for variety) and top it off with fruit pellets and probiotic, but it is impossible to know how much he has of those. He does not have all of that portion, he leaves a lot before we change it next day.
We also give him fresh food, mainly quinoa and rice, egg, carrot. mango, apple, blueberry, various greens ( not preferred, other than licking water from them) and others. He really goes for his fresh plate but I think his favorite is his seed mix.
We are to work back from the amount of seed he takes to mostly pellets, which I will do, the healthier he eats the happier I will be.
Mostly it just seems so strange that he would be diagnosed with liver issues based on his beak condition alone. It seems there are no other issues, which is good and possibly indicates early disease that we can get a handle on?
I will include pic from today and when we first got him. Just wondering if others see any beak issues.
We are to do milk thistle in water. Which I am seeing some saying might not be the most reliable way to get it where it needs to go.
When I asked if the disease could be confirmed by tests ( to see where we are) vet said yes, but not for budgies (too small). Is that the case?
I read someone mention liver enzymes, and having personally gone through a bout of liver issue I am familiar with that from a human standpoint. Is it not done for birds?
Just as a background I want to say the visit was so nice and birdie did very well. He has a sweet and curious personality, and I was so glad we give him budgie hugs ( holding him lightly in our hands) and handle him from time to time. He had no problem with the nice vet petting him and then being picked up, it went so smoothly. He was nervous and very clingy, but did very well.
I am quite surprised by a few things. His blood test was great and his fecal was great as well, no issues at all. Plasma clear. He was diagnosed with early liver disease based on his beak condition. I took some pictures today and compared them to picd I have from when we first got Bisbee and to me they look similar.
And yet the vet who examined him a year ago ( same clinic, different vet) did not mention any liver issues ( beak looks very similar to me).
His weight was I think 31 or 32 g then, is 33 g now.
He is active and bright and seems to have no issues at all( to me).
Mid December he did have an episode of running free in our room and going straight for the big window, it took him a couple round a rounds to calm down enough for us to catch the poor guy. He never acted differently after that though and I do not think his beak suffered.
Big part of vet visit ended up being his diet. I think I first heard that he should be having very little seed, like 1 tsp. To that I said that he is having more because I do not see him having much of his fruit pellets. The vet then said it is okay to have 1 tablespoon for now and that we should work back from that and work to decrease seed/ increase pellets.
I came home and measured exactly what we give him. We give him no more that 1 tablespoon of seed mix ( vita blend and harvey’s combined, for variety) and top it off with fruit pellets and probiotic, but it is impossible to know how much he has of those. He does not have all of that portion, he leaves a lot before we change it next day.
We also give him fresh food, mainly quinoa and rice, egg, carrot. mango, apple, blueberry, various greens ( not preferred, other than licking water from them) and others. He really goes for his fresh plate but I think his favorite is his seed mix.
We are to work back from the amount of seed he takes to mostly pellets, which I will do, the healthier he eats the happier I will be.
Mostly it just seems so strange that he would be diagnosed with liver issues based on his beak condition alone. It seems there are no other issues, which is good and possibly indicates early disease that we can get a handle on?
I will include pic from today and when we first got him. Just wondering if others see any beak issues.
We are to do milk thistle in water. Which I am seeing some saying might not be the most reliable way to get it where it needs to go.
When I asked if the disease could be confirmed by tests ( to see where we are) vet said yes, but not for budgies (too small). Is that the case?
I read someone mention liver enzymes, and having personally gone through a bout of liver issue I am familiar with that from a human standpoint. Is it not done for birds?
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Photos from today
There are tests for liver function in birds but the issue is the amount of blood that is needed for that for that specific test and with smaller birds the amount of blood needed may be too much to take. The issue with the beak is the darkness on the sides, liver issues can affect the clotting ability of the blood and when there is a liver issue you can sometimes see bruising on the beak and nails, I have had this happen with some birds but the bruise looked more like a brown spot on the beak and nails. The milk thistle I have given has always been directly into the mouth, where you given that option?
I always just thought about his beak darker part as shading, it does not look like bruising to me. He had it already when we found him, I am not sure if it got a little bigger?
He never had any spots on nails but does have darker blue shading on his fingers.
I am going to follow up and find out if his liver seemed enlarged during exam, I did not think to ask about it right away.
We were instructed to give milk thistle with water. He drinks water, but not that much to likely ingest more than minute amount of it, it seems.
When I tried cutting his nails a while back and made him bleed, it did take a while to stop the bleeding. Longer than what seemed reasonable, and I had cornstarch. I wonder if he does have clotting issues already.
Glad I had his pedi done by the vet this time.
He never had any spots on nails but does have darker blue shading on his fingers.
I am going to follow up and find out if his liver seemed enlarged during exam, I did not think to ask about it right away.
We were instructed to give milk thistle with water. He drinks water, but not that much to likely ingest more than minute amount of it, it seems.
When I tried cutting his nails a while back and made him bleed, it did take a while to stop the bleeding. Longer than what seemed reasonable, and I had cornstarch. I wonder if he does have clotting issues already.
Glad I had his pedi done by the vet this time.
Interesting about the beak darkness (bruising)being a sign of liver disease, thanks for the tip.
Based on the two pictures you posted, the darkness does look more pronounced on the current picture than the one from 2021, take a look at the paperwork they gave you and see if there are any comments on it about liver enlargement, they will often note that on the paperwork. Some birds can be very difficult to convert to mainly pellets, just make sure he is not starving during the process, do you have a gram scale that you can use to weigh him on at least weekly to make sure he is not losing weight when you begin to cut back on the seed?I always just thought about his beak darker part as shading, it does not look like bruising to me. He had it already when we found him, I am not sure if it got a little bigger?
He never had any spots on nails but does have darker blue shading on his fingers.
I am going to follow up and find out if his liver seemed enlarged during exam, I did not think to ask about it right away.
We were instructed to give milk thistle with water. He drinks water, but not that much to likely ingest more than minute amount of it, it seems.
When I tried cutting his nails a while back and made him bleed, it did take a while to stop the bleeding. Longer than what seemed reasonable, and I had cornstarch. I wonder if he does have clotting issues already.
Glad I had his pedi done by the vet this time.
Yes, I have gram scale and will weigh him, we weigh him on regular basis so he is fine with that.Based on the two pictures you posted, the darkness does look more pronounced on the current picture than the one from 2021, take a look at the paperwork they gave you and see if there are any comments on it about liver enlargement, they will often note that on the paperwork. Some birds can be very difficult to convert to mainly pellets, just make sure he is not starving during the process, do you have a gram scale that you can use to weigh him on at least weekly to make sure he is not losing weight when you begin to cut back on the seed?
I have a feeling he will not take to pellets easily if at all. I have been adding fruity pellets to his seed for more than a year now and he mostly ignores it.
Right now we give him his seed/pellets/ probiotic mix in the morning ( about 1 tbsp total) and leave it there for 24 hrs, until next morning. He also gets his chop ( quinoa, rice and veggies, fruits, egg, ingredients vary daily depending on what I have) sometime during the day, time varies.
I wonder if I should maybe
1. Start his day with the fresh food plate and offer seed later?
2. Give him seed and not keep it available 24 hrs? More like seed meal times and just pellets available all other times?
Right now he always waits for fresh seed in the morning, and likely has some throughout the day (not sure how often) and then definitely has some for dinner in the evening.
He never eats all of his seed. There is lots left. I will include pic of what was left from last 24 hr period.
I see quite a bit of the seed eaten in this picture, gently blow away the seed hulls and see what's left and you will get a better idea of how much seed he did not eat. Are the pellets in this picture in with the seed mix or have you added them separately? You can definitely try giving seed in the morning and just pellets during the day and then a bit more seed at night. If you are leaving food for him during the day start with pellets and a small amount of seed mixed in and slowly reduce the seed a bit, but if he starts losing weight you have to give back more seed, you can continue to give the chop. Have you tried grinding up the pellets and sprinkling them on the seed, this sometimes helps them to get a taste of the pellets.
Grinding pellets is a great idea, thank you!I see quite a bit of the seed eaten in this picture, gently blow away the seed hulls and see what's left and you will get a better idea of how much seed he did not eat. Are the pellets in this picture in with the seed mix or have you added them separately? You can definitely try giving seed in the morning and just pellets during the day and then a bit more seed at night. If you are leaving food for him during the day start with pellets and a small amount of seed mixed in and slowly reduce the seed a bit, but if he starts losing weight you have to give back more seed, you can continue to give the chop. Have you tried grinding up the pellets and sprinkling them on the seed, this sometimes helps them to get a taste of the pellets.
The fruity pellets come separate (zupreem), I always add them to his seed.
I am waiting to find out if his liver was enlarged. There is no mention of this in his paperwork.
The paperwork shows normal on GI, so no enlarged liver.
We weighed him today nd he is 32 grams, which he almost always is when we weigh at home. He was 33 at vet but that was after some breakfast.
I have been putting the ground pellets on his seed and hope he is developing a taste for it.
Wondering if I should sprinkle some on his quinoa, or could he get offended.
Also I am not sure if I should keep mixing seed and pellets or start keeping them separately in his cage.
We are still doing 1 tbsp of seed but starting to take away 10 percent of seed on Monday. I am planning to use gram scale to figure that out so that we are consistent.
We weighed him today nd he is 32 grams, which he almost always is when we weigh at home. He was 33 at vet but that was after some breakfast.
I have been putting the ground pellets on his seed and hope he is developing a taste for it.
Wondering if I should sprinkle some on his quinoa, or could he get offended.
Also I am not sure if I should keep mixing seed and pellets or start keeping them separately in his cage.
We are still doing 1 tbsp of seed but starting to take away 10 percent of seed on Monday. I am planning to use gram scale to figure that out so that we are consistent.
I'm glad to hear the liver is not enlarged. 💜💜
You could put a bit of the ground pellets (mash) on a portion of the quinoa but leave some without.
See if he tries the portion that has the ground pellet on it or rejects it.
You could put a bit of the ground pellets (mash) on a portion of the quinoa but leave some without.
See if he tries the portion that has the ground pellet on it or rejects it.
So it’s been a while and I have cut some of his seed, very gently, providing more fruity pellet. Well, he went down to 31 grams and then down to 30 grams after which I went right back to full tablespoon of seed the way he used to have it.
I was playing around with picking a seed and see if he will have it from between my fingers. He gets his small millet balls that way. Sure enough he adores the while millet seeds and the thin long seeds, everything else is likely a waste of my money. But wait for it, he actually runs away from the pellets!
I guess he knows there aren’t any pellet trees growing in Australia 🙄
So I am back to square one, and a budg who today weighed back at 32 grams.
My other approach might be to try giving him seed food at certain times a day and having pellets there the remaining time, but before I try that I want to see if there are any other popular ( with budgies) pellets I could get?
I am really afraid of him losing weight, although I was reassured he can gain back fairly quickly.
He does get his fresh veggies with quinoa everyday, but it still did not prevent him from dropping a couple grams just by giving him slightly less seed.
I was playing around with picking a seed and see if he will have it from between my fingers. He gets his small millet balls that way. Sure enough he adores the while millet seeds and the thin long seeds, everything else is likely a waste of my money. But wait for it, he actually runs away from the pellets!
I guess he knows there aren’t any pellet trees growing in Australia 🙄
So I am back to square one, and a budg who today weighed back at 32 grams.
My other approach might be to try giving him seed food at certain times a day and having pellets there the remaining time, but before I try that I want to see if there are any other popular ( with budgies) pellets I could get?
I am really afraid of him losing weight, although I was reassured he can gain back fairly quickly.
He does get his fresh veggies with quinoa everyday, but it still did not prevent him from dropping a couple grams just by giving him slightly less seed.
You might try Harrisons, the problem with them is that you will probably have to order them from someplace online or direct from Harrisons and the shipping is as much and sometimes more than the product.
Lafeber and Roudybush also have small size pellets but they are not as small as the smallest from Zupreem or Harrisons.
Do you have the canary size Zupreem?
Lafeber and Roudybush also have small size pellets but they are not as small as the smallest from Zupreem or Harrisons.
Do you have the canary size Zupreem?
Hahah, my little guy would run from pellets, too!
There are multiple strategies for diet conversion, you'll have to keep trying different ones until you find what works. Make sure to give each method ample time. One thing most instructions gloss over, and looks like you found this out: if the budgie has a choice, the budgie will eat the seed.
Be patient... I tried almost every which way to get mine converted to eating more than just seed, took 14 months! We're now at roughly 40% pellet, 50% seed, and 10% veggies. Still like to shift that towards more pellet and veggies. I'm happy to send you a list of all the methods I've tried.. I hope your conversion goes smoothly and easily, but just be ready that adult budgies are some of the most stubborn creatures out there..
There are multiple strategies for diet conversion, you'll have to keep trying different ones until you find what works. Make sure to give each method ample time. One thing most instructions gloss over, and looks like you found this out: if the budgie has a choice, the budgie will eat the seed.
Be patient... I tried almost every which way to get mine converted to eating more than just seed, took 14 months! We're now at roughly 40% pellet, 50% seed, and 10% veggies. Still like to shift that towards more pellet and veggies. I'm happy to send you a list of all the methods I've tried.. I hope your conversion goes smoothly and easily, but just be ready that adult budgies are some of the most stubborn creatures out there..
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