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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well Mainly Belle's she's so light its hard to get her actual color right

but They just started laying eggs - They have 2 so far

but for my records I want to Double Check their Mutations :)

Shiloh
Violet Cobalt Opaline Clear Flight Pied
Bella
Sky Blue Grey wing Opaline



Bella (back wall)


Bella - Left -this is as true to her color as I can get (that was a temp. travel cage by the way)




Shiloh




The female in this is not Bella
 

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Haha I dont Know how I missed this thread :)

I think you have it pretty much right, but In the first pic Bella looks like a sky blue, and the other 2 like a cobalt. Is it just the flash that washes her out in the first one? Or does she just look darker in the second 2 pics than in real life? :)
 

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Just want---

Hi,
Hi,

On the clearflight, it looks like it has a dark blue tail. This is a fault on the bench, I cannot see the back. If the bird is frosted then there is allowance for some dark feathers in wing and tail. My frosted has 4 long tail feathers instead of just 2. Two are white and top 2 are dark blue. Seems mother nature is having fun keeping us guessing. What a beautiful bird. I am anxious to start breeding to see if I can produce a good clearflight from Jack Frosts' parents.
I really like the way WBO judge and breeder Didier Mervilde from Belgium lays out the prospective crosses for clearflight, dutch and frosted in his Article on Dutch Pieds. He has been very helpful in his emails to me to help me sort this out.

Blessings,

Jo Ann:budgie:
 

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Just want---

Oh what beautiful birds,

It is Shiloh that I was referring to on the blue tail.
I do not care what judges say. These birds are so lovely to behold in all of their variations.

Blessings,

Jo Ann:budge:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Haha I dont Know how I missed this thread :)

I think you have it pretty much right, but In the first pic Bella looks like a sky blue, and the other 2 like a cobalt. Is it just the flash that washes her out in the first one? Or does she just look darker in the second 2 pics than in real life? :)
its the flash :( - in person she looks Identical to the 2 pics of her in the cage(where she actually looks like a pale violet rather than blue- in those pics there was no flash- just the building lights (it was at a bird fair - so it was a Fair ground building with tons of lights)

Hi,
Hi,

On the clearflight, it looks like it has a dark blue tail. This is a fault on the bench, I cannot see the back. If the bird is frosted then there is allowance for some dark feathers in wing and tail. My frosted has 4 long tail feathers instead of just 2. Two are white and top 2 are dark blue. Seems mother nature is having fun keeping us guessing. What a beautiful bird. I am anxious to start breeding to see if I can produce a good clearflight from Jack Frosts' parents.
I really like the way WBO judge and breeder Didier Mervilde from Belgium lays out the prospective crosses for clearflight, dutch and frosted in his Article on Dutch Pieds. He has been very helpful in his emails to me to help me sort this out.

Blessings,

Jo Ann:budgie:
Shiloh Doesn't have the blue tail often - if you notice its there in one pic gone in the next - I have a Dominant Pied that does the exact same thing I have just a couple pics of them with a Blue tail - usually its clear

I don't really bother with what judges would like/dislike I don't show so that's not a huge concern to me - just wanted to make sure I had their mutations correct (visually any way don't know what they're split to yet lol) but I checked tonight and still 2 eggs so I didn't get to far behind LOL

but I'm curious what makes you mention Frosted with him? This is a new term to me Like i said in that one thread about it - I'd have no idea what to even look for to know if any of mine were Frosted or not
 

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Just want---

Hi,
I was the same way this past show season. Suddenly my bird that I thought was a clearflight got shifted to AOV, but still did very well in Novice and Rare divisions. So I started asking for info as conformation to model is important in English Budgies. I actually think Americans should have representative shows because new mutations come from there a lot of the time-like the Crests, which are finally showing on the English Bench-a good sign for the future!

I am not too good with photos so no photobucket-I have wanted to get a sig-avatar but need help and I lack some skills. You can see a photo Of Jack Frost on the BAA web page-member section, showing what I call snow on his wings. Also www.budgerigar.co.uk web page under comments will soon have a series of photos showing wings and tail spread as well as body markings, which keep changing. When I first wrote the comment he had no wash on his wings, but now it shows clearly in the photos. The standard on the bench is fluid as there are only a few being shown in US at this time. Several long time breeders have tried to buy him from me and I feel I owe Gordon and Maureen some thanks in the form of future chicks to work with. I am really drawn to the Rare division. I have to use strict rules in the breeding because only certain forms are recognized or are shoved into AOV. Which is a slot for composite birds that do not fit a recognized standard. Good birds do win out of AOV, but I am too new to do this yet. Jack has opened a can of worms as many US Judges have never seen a frosted pied. The Judges from Europe and UK who have visited or moved to the US are helping to change this. Jack got his first Novice win from a WBO/BAA Judge formerly from England. In the BAA standard, clearflight and Dutch have separate standards but are very close so now they are grouped together in a section, not just thrown into AOV. I hope you get a frosted to pop out like Jack did. There is a lot of years of experimental breeding behind Jack that is rightfully credited to Gordon and Maureen. I just happened to have "fools"Novice luck to buy the right sale birds and pair them. I was looking for clearflight as I did not know about dutch let alone, frosted!! Boy was I shocked when Jack was thrown into AOV. I was afraid he was going to be rejected off the bench entirely before he even got a chance!! It will be interesting to watch the experts work out the conformation for these birds. There are a lot of conflicting points of view to sort thru. I am waiting and watching. These birds have been around for a while but not enough interest to bring them to anything but experimental work as compared to the breeding of the standard green/blue birds. Birds that do not catch on can disappear.

Many years ago, I worked in research that was developing organ/blood transplant procedures. Now there Is the Immunology department in major facilities. There was a lot of hypothetical commentary that eventually took procedural form then as well. I like the challenge of new ideas even as an old person!

Blessings,

Jo Ann:budgie:
 

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I don't think you're going to get too many mutations wrong. You're one of the few people on TB who knows the different mutations. Is it common for a bird to change colour like your bird? Like I said before; you have lovely birds.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi,
I was the same way this past show season. Suddenly my bird that I thought was a clearflight got shifted to AOV, but still did very well in Novice and Rare divisions. So I started asking for info as conformation to model is important in English Budgies. I actually think Americans should have representative shows because new mutations come from there a lot of the time-like the Crests, which are finally showing on the English Bench-a good sign for the future!

I am not too good with photos so no photobucket-I have wanted to get a sig-avatar but need help and I lack some skills. You can see a photo Of Jack Frost on the BAA web page-member section, showing what I call snow on his wings. Also www.budgerigar.co.uk web page under comments will soon have a series of photos showing wings and tail spread as well as body markings, which keep changing. When I first wrote the comment he had no wash on his wings, but now it shows clearly in the photos. The standard on the bench is fluid as there are only a few being shown in US at this time. Several long time breeders have tried to buy him from me and I feel I owe Gordon and Maureen some thanks in the form of future chicks to work with. I am really drawn to the Rare division. I have to use strict rules in the breeding because only certain forms are recognized or are shoved into AOV. Which is a slot for composite birds that do not fit a recognized standard. Good birds do win out of AOV, but I am too new to do this yet. Jack has opened a can of worms as many US Judges have never seen a frosted pied. The Judges from Europe and UK who have visited or moved to the US are helping to change this. Jack got his first Novice win from a WBO/BAA Judge formerly from England. In the BAA standard, clearflight and Dutch have separate standards but are very close so now they are grouped together in a section, not just thrown into AOV. I hope you get a frosted to pop out like Jack did. There is a lot of years of experimental breeding behind Jack that is rightfully credited to Gordon and Maureen. I just happened to have "fools"Novice luck to buy the right sale birds and pair them. I was looking for clearflight as I did not know about dutch let alone, frosted!! Boy was I shocked when Jack was thrown into AOV. I was afraid he was going to be rejected off the bench entirely before he even got a chance!! It will be interesting to watch the experts work out the conformation for these birds. There are a lot of conflicting points of view to sort thru. I am waiting and watching. These birds have been around for a while but not enough interest to bring them to anything but experimental work as compared to the breeding of the standard green/blue birds. Birds that do not catch on can disappear.

Many years ago, I worked in research that was developing organ/blood transplant procedures. Now there Is the Immunology department in major facilities. There was a lot of hypothetical commentary that eventually took procedural form then as well. I like the challenge of new ideas even as an old person!

Blessings,

Jo Ann:budgie:
Thank you - I'll check the link - Frosted is a whole new term for me :) But with birds you just never know what you may get - even if you think you know everything your bird has lol

I don't think you're going to get too many mutations wrong. You're one of the few people on TB who knows the different mutations. Is it common for a bird to change colour like your bird? Like I said before; you have lovely birds.
:eek: Thank you - The lights and flash have a lot to do with the color changes- Specially of my birds- the lighting in my house isn't all that swell no matter how big of a bulb I put in I can use 100 watt light bulbs and I still can't see very well. I think it has a lot to do with how my house is positioned and shaped It's long and sits between one very tall house and one tall and very long house So my house is Shaded from a lot of natural light so I have to come up with other ways to try and get pics Sometimes this means using my LCD Flash light and aim it at the bird While taking a pic (Which is what I did in the very 1st pic (the one with the text on it) and the flash still went off - i was hoping to get it w/out flash But when i shut the flash off and still used the flash light it was dark and blurry so I had no choice but to keep the flash on :( I have tried every setting on my camera and If the lighting isn't perfect I don't get very many true to color pictures

but with Belle I'm just not sure if she'd be Sky Violet, Sky Blue or Just violet - her actual color like I said is In the 2 pics of her in the Travel cage(the bird with her is not Shiloh it's a male i bought with her at the bird fair) Wish I had a building like the one that pic was taken in to get good pics all the time though LOL because I know just walking through the building looking at birds Because of that lighting it's caused me to almost break the bank a few times Specially the day I was walking through and saw a Deep Violet Pied English Budgie! Unfortunately I didn't have the extra $90 to get him other wise He'd be here :D His purple was so dark there was NO confusing it with blue! Unless the person was color blind. just about every one who walked by (which were mainly just average bird owners who don't know mutations) commented on how beautiful he was or You'd hear a lot of "OMG LOOK THAT BIRD IS PURPLE" comments lol
 

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Just want---

Hi,

That is when you really know you have found your spot. My first English was a deep double factor normal violet. When she got wet she had almost black? chest feathers. I can never get lighting right. Check any heavily marked recessive pied hens, usually, some of the feathers look frosted on the back of mine. The photos of Jack are bad on light. His back is actually a brilliant sky with hints of cobalt or violet. Jack's parents- The hen is split for blue series and the dark green **** is as well. It is a good way to set up for violet. One of my mentors in Texas, is an expert top winner with sky violet. I just do not see it well enough yet. I am anxious to see what another pairing will yield, And next year for Jack. It is so wonderful to see such beautiful birds in loving homes of folks here on TB.

Blessings,

Jo Ann:budgie:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks :) I have a lot of violets- but mainly in American(pet Type) Budgies I just finally found English Budgies around me in the last year So I didn't have many choices before I started with 6 English budgies back in 07 But they all came from the same woman who colony bred- only one had a leg band on He was 5 when I got them(died 2 months later) So I went on the side of Caution and refused to breed them together, plus since he died that only left me One male and 4 females - so I started using them with my American Budgies until I could get more full blooded English- now I have some so I don't need to cross them any more :D but now I do have some big crosses that I will put back to Pure American's to Bring their size up a little bit more - Most of mine are big to start with (bigger than Pet shops) but hoping it'll help them in the long run

But it took me 4 years to get a Violet Dominant Pied - I fell in love with that mutation when I was seeing what Bird I wanted to start with - and couldn't find any - Finally got one too bad all her pics make her look blue because in real life she truly is purple I wouldn't even call her violet because to me Violet is a Light Purple when you refer to the actual Colors.. She is not a light purple but a nice dark real Purple and I think the pied just makes it stand out more

my next "want" in the violets is a Yellow Face violet Dominant pied - but I do not want the yellow to bleed into the white at all I just want it on the face, not the belly bar or the whites of the wings - so that may never happen lol

but my 1st violet I bred was a Double Factor Violet both his parents were Yellow Face Violets - he was their only baby
 

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I wish I can set my mind on just one or two mutations - get it and then move on to the next mutation; I want everything NOW and really I'm getting nowhere. In 2 weeks time I'm moving to a new city and then I will sort out my pairs to get away from colony breeding - I will decide then what I want. Violet will be part of my decision and spangle!! Violet (cobalt) spangle and DF spangles (blue series). Clearbodies will also be on my list. and DP and ...
 

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Just want---

Hi,

The best place to get violet English, in the US is either Julie Willis of Terrell Texas or Henry Thimmes of Florida. or Stewart Sachs-Julies' business partner. in Maryland.They are competing for Champion Exhibitor of the year for 2011 I just got a beautiful 2010 Yellow face violet **** from Henry for under 100.00 -unheard of!! He had a great Breeding year and let go of some amazing "culls". Ask for yellow face not golden face as the golden is what bleeds into the body color. The one place that I like the golden face is blue series opaline golden face because it is used to produce wonderful rainbows.

As You live in Ohio, There are English shows, in Chicago, Iowa, Wisconsin, Rhode Is. Maryland, New Jersey through the year. The last 2 shows for this year are in CA, and New Orleans, I am going to New Orleans this weekend.
Check the ABS and BAA web pages for listings for 2012 early -before April- Actually the BAA Show in Tennessee usually draws A lot of Breeders from all over Julie, Steuart, and Henry are usually there. Visitors are welcome and there are usually sale birds and raffels to support the club. We drive to shows. It is 6 hours from GA to New Orleans.

If you were to join BAA or ABS you can get the Mags with current info. but it is also available for free on the Net. Julie is known for her Violet Dominant pied wins. Both she and Henry are BAA judges as well. I have learned a lot from Julie. When you get in the loop you hear where who has what in the current breeding year.

I like to work with the dark factors, I love violet mauve and olive. The very first chick born in my aviary Is Hansell, an olive spangle, He is out Of the double factor violet hen, Iris and a dark green spangle, split for blue. 3rd generation produced normal violet and cinnamon violet and dark green cinnamon out of Hansells sister Fern a violet dark green and cobalt ****.

I am planning to breed Hansell this year and retire him off the bench. He is too dear to risk as he is at his full breeding prime now. He has a number of Novice wins, including First. He is not a large bird but he Sits the bench like a veteran, tall and full of look at me, and when you go to the back of the show hall he out shines the lighter birds. His spangle markings are very good thin dark lines and he has no flashing on the back of the head, long smooth back line and tail. I need to breed him to a large hen to improve size. His mask and blow are adequate but could be better. His bulls eye spots are adequate but could improve a little.

Use hens, particularly opaline to increase spot size, and cinnamon to improve feather texture in English, Just be careful to check vent feathers as the English tend to get poop caught when you get a very full feather bird. I pull, as needed, even when not breeding season. We survey daily for vent problems, usually not a sick bird, just lots of feather. They still come in for observation for a few days to be sure there is no underlying problem. Please forgive the verbosity. I just get excited talking about these wonderful birds.

The thing I hate about show prep is pulling spots, Which need to be six evenly spaced in the mask. The birds do not like it much either.

It sounds like you are well grounded in the breeding skills. I could see you have great English on the bench. YOUR BABIES ARE BEAUTIFUL!!

Blessings,

Jo Ann:budgie:
 

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Just want---

Hi Dries,

I know what you mean!!! I like spangles, all of the pieds, and Texas clearbodies, as well as slates. I have a cobalt, opaline slate hen that I am anxious to breed. The subtle color is a good contrast to Violet!! My mentor is known for rares, so I get exposure to a lot of the mutations being worked on, including Anthracite, slate, crests, Easly clearbody, fallows and of course, Frosted pieds. I am looking forward to meeting Dr. Travenecheck, who introduced Frosted pieds to the US. It is so sad that many of his birds died during Katrina. There are several Louisanna breeders that suffered. Good luck on the new breeding plans. It is easier to control outcome in individual pairings. Especially if you are working on a specific issue. I am working on Blow and mask and spots right now. Size is always there as well. I still love my little Americans, both sky dom pieds. They are always healthy, no vent or eye problems-----!!! I believe we may be harming our English by pushing their evolution faster than mother nature intends!!!

Blessings,

Jo Ann:budgie:
 

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Let me start by saying I did not read most of the other posts. :) Your female looks/sounds just like my bird Purl. I thought she was a sky blue violet factored greywing. She's a light purple color in person, but in photos I get everything from sky blue to deep violet depending on the light. I bred her with another cobalt and got mauve, cobalt and sky blue babies. Their breeding is the only way I knew for sure that they BOTH were cobalt. Even the experts on here said they were both sky blues.

Here is a link to a thread on her. Within it is another link with more photos in response to Nev's comment. Good luck!

http://talkbudgies.com/showthread.php?t=61788
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Let me start by saying I did not read most of the other posts. :) Your female looks/sounds just like my bird Purl. I thought she was a sky blue violet factored greywing. She's a light purple color in person, but in photos I get everything from sky blue to deep violet depending on the light. I bred her with another cobalt and got mauve, cobalt and sky blue babies. Their breeding is the only way I knew for sure that they BOTH were cobalt. Even the experts on here said they were both sky blues.

Here is a link to a thread on her. Within it is another link with more photos in response to Nev's comment. Good luck!

http://talkbudgies.com/showthread.php?t=61788
Thanks I'll have a look at that link
 

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Let me start by saying I did not read most of the other posts. :) Your female looks/sounds just like my bird Purl. I thought she was a sky blue violet factored greywing. She's a light purple color in person, but in photos I get everything from sky blue to deep violet depending on the light. I bred her with another cobalt and got mauve, cobalt and sky blue babies. Their breeding is the only way I knew for sure that they BOTH were cobalt. Even the experts on here said they were both sky blues.

Here is a link to a thread on her. Within it is another link with more photos in response to Nev's comment. Good luck!

http://talkbudgies.com/showthread.php?t=61788
Did you get any violets?
I'm so glad Nev can also be wrong!!:D
Can open a new thread showing the babies, please.
 

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It's always hard to tell from photos. Here is a link to their journal:
http://talkbudgies.com/showthread.php?t=71792

I have nO idea if I got true violets. 3 of the babies are a nice purple color like mama (they have the exact same mutation) on the yf sky blue opaline greywing, I thought I saw violet but I'm not sure. I'd need an expert opinion.
 
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