[hablandodebudgies]

Hello and thank you! I've read the information and it's a great help. But a problem has come up with my youngest budgie (bought late February) and I'm not sure what's wrong. Since Thursday evening, he's been extremely lethargic and weak. Thursday was the worst as he just wouldn't move at all. Subsequent days were slightly better. He has a little more energy and shows interest if I say put broccoli in the cage. I see him preening from time to time. But he seems very weak. He sleeps constantly and stumbles easily and often while moving or even while preening and eating. His wings often tremble too. Some tail bobbing while he's sleeping, which is getting more pronounced late today.

The confusing part is besides this, there's been very little sign of illness. No discharge from the cere, the vent is clean, the poop looks normal. His feathers are bright and vibrant. He has an amazing appetite (I feed them Roudybush pellets with some Zupreem Pure Fun). When he's not sleeping, he's at the food bowls, and he eats much more than my other 3 budgies. When they go to eat, he easily spends 10-20 minutes more than the rest eating.

If I offer him millet, he instantly wakes up and eats longer than the rest. The last time I gave him millet, he stood on my hand and ate, though he stumbled on my hand and eventually went to a perch to eat where he seemed to be steadier. I've stopped giving them millet because I noticed one of my other budgies spit up bits of millet taken from the same bag (Kaytee), and on another day another budgie spit up millet too, so I'm wondering if there might have been a problem with the millet.

My other three budgies aren't showing any signs of illness like the youngest. They're happy and active as usual.

The youngest did go through a similar period in April, when I believe he was molting. I don't know if he's molting again. Lately there's been a lot of feathers around the cage, but I'm not sure if these belong to him or the others. I didn't take him to the vet back in April because he recovered much sooner and within a day was back to normal. Since then he has slept more than the rest while being a bit puffed up, but until Thursday, he didn't show any sign of weakness. Whenever he woke up, he was always alert and energetic, even if he slept more often. This was how it's been for months, again, until Thursday.

It was too late to call the vet when he started showing symptoms on Thursday, and Friday morning the secretary told me they wouldn't have an avian vet until Monday. The emergency clinic wouldn't have an avian vet until after Monday. So the plan is to call the usual vet first thing Monday. Still, I would really appreciate any insight or advice. Thank you very much and sorry for any bother.

 

[Cody]

There are so many possibilities here that a trip to the vet is the only way that you will get a diagnosis and proper treatment. A few things that come to mind in which you might see the lethargy, weakness and stumbling are heavy metal poisoning, electrolyte imbalance, dehydration, nutritional issues, kidney and liver issues, & pituitary tumor. Does he eat pellets only, what do the droppings look like? Are you able to keep him in a separate cage until the vet see him? Are you sure he is eating and not just picking?

 

[hablandodebudgies]

There are so many possibilities here that a trip to the vet is the only way that you will get a diagnosis and proper treatment. A few things that come to mind in which you might see the lethargy, weakness and stumbling are heavy metal poisoning, electrolyte imbalance, dehydration, nutritional issues, kidney and liver issues, & pituitary tumor. Does he eat pellets only, what do the droppings look like? Are you able to keep him in a separate cage until the vet see him? Are you sure he is eating and not just picking?

Thank you very much! Yes, I thought as much. Symptoms for different problems seem so similar, so a vet visit is crucial here. But I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. It's torture watching him like this and not being able to do anything until I get him to the vet tomorrow.

I would doubt it's heavy metal poisoning. He hasn't been in contact with anything that could cause that. I'm not sure I understand electrolytic imbalance. Dehydration I would doubt. I think I've seen him drink, the food bowls are next to the water silos, but I don't have the clearest memory of seeing him drink, if I'm honest. I hope it isn't nutritional issues. All my budgies have had Roudybush mixed with Zupreem, and vegetables clipped to the cage. I usually alternate between carrots, broccoli, bell peppers, cilantro, and more rarely cabbage and lettuce. I haven't had luck convincing them to try fruits, so it's been mostly vegetables, and they all luckily love the vegetables, especially carrots, broccoli, and cilantro. I can't be totally sure he's eating when he's at the food bowls, though that's what it looks like to me. When I gave him millet, though, I clearly saw him eat, so if he's doing the same at the food bowls, then he's eating. As for tumors, hopefully I'll find out when I take him to the vet. Thank you for your advice.

 

[Cody]

Don't be concerned about him not eating fruits, they are high in sugar, the veggies are better anyway. Is he falling off of the perch? It would be a good idea to put a folded towel at the bottom of his cage and cover it with paper towels so if he falls it will be soft. Please keep us posted on his condition after the vet visit.

 

[hablandodebudgies]

Don't be concerned about him not eating fruits, they are high in sugar, the veggies are better anyway. Is he falling off of the perch? It would be a good idea to put a folded towel at the bottom of his cage and cover it with paper towels so if he falls it will be soft. Please keep us posted on his condition after the vet visit.

Yes, I was never too bothered about the fruits for that reason. He's not falling off the perch, thank goodness, but thank you, I'll do that.

Sorry about the double post! When I take him to the vet tomorrow, are there any specific tests I should ask for?

 

[Cody]

That depends on what knowledge the vet can gain by the physical exam, if the vet can determine the problem just by the exam then tests are not needed, if not, a blood test called a CBC would tell a lot about many things but is not disease specific, a fecal gram stain would reveal infections or parasites in the GI tract. This article will explain various tests

https://nilesanimalhospital.com/files/2012/05/Understanding-Avian-Lab-Work-Updated-version.pdf

 

[hablandodebudgies]

That article is fantastic! I'll be sure to read it thoroughly before the vet visit. Thanks so much.

My only concern would be with drawing blood for a blood test. For larger birds it makes perfect sense, but I'd be concerned when dealing with as small and delicate a bird as a budgie. That seems like something to avoid, unless absolutely necessary. Same for any tests that require anesthesia. But in any case, I'm getting ahead of myself. It's likely best to wait and see what the vet says. A physical examination (hopefully) could be enough.

A final question. I've always read that budgies should get 12 hours of sleep or more to make sure they get enough rest and avoid becoming hormonal. I've always given them 10 to 12 hours of sleep, but there have been nights when I've been behind on my work and ended up putting them to bed past 10 pm, at times around 11 or 11:30, to wake up the next day at 10 or 11 am. I live with my parents and my father (rightfully) pointed out this was unnatural and possibly harmful for birds. I've tried recently to make sure I get them to bed earlier, but I'm worried that unusual schedule could be a factor. While my other three budgies seem completely unaffected, not every individual has the same constitution or resistance. Do you think this could have caused the problem? It's definitely something I need to mention to the vet, but I wanted to ask here as well.

 

[Cody]

With a small bird a blood sample is often obtained by a nail clip, a very small amount of blood is needed and this method is simple and quick, even x-rays can be done without anesthesia by a skilled team. If the vet determines that the bird is just too stressed just by be being there then the tests should not be done. Sometimes without tests it can be a guessing game as to what is wrong and the best treatment to be followed but there are times when tests may not be able to be done.

 

[hablandodebudgies]

Thank you for the information! That makes me less nervous should any test be necessary.

Update: Just finished talking with the vet. Unfortunately, the secretary told me she was mistaken about the vet's schedule and that I should call Thursday morning in case they have an appointment. It's never been this hard to get an appointment with them before. Time to go on a Google search for other avian vets in the area, because I really don't want my budgie to wait that long.

 

[Cody]

This link may help you just put in your city and state https://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803
Did you explain to the vet that this is a serious situation that needs attention now?

 

[hablandodebudgies]

Thank you. Yes, I let the secretary know he's been quite ill and needed help urgently today. She was understanding and took my phone number in case someone cancelled, but they just didn't have an appointment today.

 

[hablandodebudgies]

It took calling about 10 clinics that either had an avian vet but were fully booked or said they had an avian vet on their websites but hadn't updated their websites to reflect that they didn't offer avian medicine anymore (and frankly admittedly my fault for not having a back up for situations like these), but I finally got my baby an appointment today for 4 pm.

I woke them up shortly after getting off the phone. He's still lethargic, weak and stumbling, which remains extremely worrying. But he shows interest in food. He went immediately to the food bowls and when I went to clip carrots to the cage, I tried bringing a piece of carrot close to him and he tried to nibble on it. He didn't bite down, but at least he showed interest. If I brought my finger close him, he would try to nibble softly on my finger, something he's done since he was much younger. After I finished clipping the carrots to the cage, he immediately went to the good bowls to eat. When he finished eating, he went up to a higher perch where he's been alternating between sleeping and preening, and very occasionally chirping softly. So still very worrying, but at least some hopeful signs.

 

[FaeryBee]

I'm so sorry you weren't able to get an appointment until Thursday.
I know how frustrating that is. In the meantime, Cody has giving you excellent advise
I'm sending lots of prayers and healing energy for your little boy. (name?)

Have you been giving him Guardian Angel or Pedialyte? (Recipe for homemade pedialyte is in the link below)
Is he in an individual cage by himself at this point?

Keep him warm and give him Guardian Angel or Pedialyte in his water dish.
You can also soak a spray of millet in the solution and let him eat that.

Guardian Angel//Pedialyte//Pedialyte Recipe

I'd also suggest trying egg food for him.
You can use store-bought egg food or make a boiled egg and mash up the yolk very finely for him.
If you have any pro-biotics for your budgies, make sure you sprinkle that on his food as well.

Flora BIrd Probiotic

The purpose of this forum is to promote the BEST PRACTICES in the care of budgies for their optimal Health and Well-Being
Locating an Avian Veterinarian

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Truly, the very BEST advice anyone can offer you is to take the time to read ALL of the stickies throughout the various Talk Budgie forums as well as the Budgie Articles we have posted.
(Stickies are threads “stuck” at the top of each forum sub-section)
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[hablandodebudgies]

Thank you FaeryBee and Cody for all the great information. Sorry, I hadn't given the name! The youngest is Napoleon but we've taken to calling him Nepo at times.

I was very lucky to get an appointment today from a different avian vet. We just got back from the appointment. The vet asked similar question to what's been asked here, if he had eaten anything unusual like paint, if he had hit his head, if he had been in a fight with the other budgies. The vet did a physical exam and said she didn't notice anything unusual with his heart or lungs. Weight was 33 grams. Based on my description of the problem, the vet told us to keep him with the other birds. I do have a separate hospital cage just in case, but in view of the fact that she didn't notice anything potentially contagious, the vet advised us not to separate them and cause him more stress. She believes it may have something to do with the change of weather, as where we live it was relatively warm until recently when the temperature dropped very suddenly the last few days. The vet had said that, had she noticed anything in the exam, she would have suggested putting Napoleon in the hospital cage and administering Baytril in the water. Given that nothing showed up in the exam, she instead suggested adding Lafeber Avi-Era Powdered Bird Vitamins to all of their food. That could be quite good in addition to the pedialyte and egg food. I couldn't find it in local stores so I've ordered it online.

I completely forgot to ask the vet and just remembered now. The base of their diet is Roudybush Crumbles. I seem to remember reading on Roudybush's website that they don't want people adding vitamins to their food. Would LaFeber cause any problems? I don't think it would, especially as Napoleon is clearly under stress, but I thought it best to ask here where everyone likely has experience with these products. If necessary I'll call the clinic to be completely sure.

EDIT: Oh, I didn't notice I put this in the wrong forum! I should have noticed, it's really obvious now. I apologize for that.

 

[FaeryBee]

Was your veterinarian aware when you spoke to her that Nepo's base diet is Roudybush crumbles?
Does he also get a quality seed mix and fresh vegetables?

Given Roudybush is your budgies base diet, I would be extremely reluctant to add additional vitamins into the mix. Too much of a "good" thing can cause problems.
My recommendation would be to use a good Avian Pro-biotic for them instead of additional vitamins.

Check with your Avian Vet to be sure she knows about the base diet of your birds and ask if she still believes that additional vitamins are required.

IF, in the future, you need to administer medication to one of your budgies, it is best to do it via syringe (orally) rather than in the water.
The Avian Veterinarian can instruct you on how to best administer medication via oral syringe.
When you give medication by water, there is no way of knowing how much the budgie is actually getting.

 

[hablandodebudgies]

Yes, I've always given them Roudybush for the pellets mixed with Zupreem Pure Fun for the seeds. In addition, I clip vegetables to their cage every day. I'm always trying to find new vegetables they might like, but currently I rotate between carrots, broccoli, cilantro, bell peppers, and more rarely, lettuce and cabbage, not for nutritional value but more just for the sake of variety and the mental stimulation of seeing something different. Carrots, broccoli, and cilantro are clear favorites, though. (I heard from a relative that cilantro might be too strong for budgies? Is there any truth to that?) I usually also give them a little millet every day for a couple minutes, though for the present I've paused that since I saw my two other budgies, on separate occasions, spit up after eating millet from one Kaytee bag. I threw out that bag, I can't prove anything but I was suspicious after two budgies spit up and one was under the weather. It can't hurt to buy a different bag later on.

I really can't believe I messed up this much. I brought the bag of Roudybush Crumbles and Zupreem Pure Fun with me to the clinic specifically to show the vet. A vet tech came and spoke to us first, and I did tell her about their diet and show her the bags. Where I messed up was not telling the same to the vet herself.

In any case, the Lafeber's will take a couple days to arrive. I'll call the clinic tomorrow to clarify, as they're closed now.

Thank you very much for your advice, it's greatly appreciated.

 

[FaeryBee]

Cilantro is fine to give your budgies.
Budgies LOVE spicy tastes. Even hot peppers!

Safe Foods for Budgies

I'd stay away from the Kaytee brand of millet in the future.
You have to ensure the millet has no mold on it and is fresh.
Also, I would suggest you give just one little ball of the millet to each budgie rather than letting them chew on a spray of millet.

 

[hablandodebudgies]

Thank you. Is there any kind of millet you would suggest? I'll limit how much they get as well.

EDIT: Do you recommend a specific brand of avian probiotics? I'm a bit wary just because there seem to be a lot and I don't know which are better than others. I'm considering Avi-Culture-2-PLUS, The Finest, Live, GMO-FREE, 100% ORGANIC, Avian-Specific Probiotic/Prebioic/Enzyme/Amino Acid Blend but I'm not sure.

A similar question: reading up on Roudybush shows me they also advise against having a cuttlebone in the cage when feeding Roudybush. This I hadn't heard about. I've had two cuttlebones in the cage forever, in part because I have two hens. They all, male and female, nibble on the cuttlebone, though sometimes they'll decide to eat quite a bit. Is this dangerous? I know one of my hens likely needed it. A couple weeks ago she decided to lay three eggs. I was suprised because I've tried to avoid anything that could make them hormonal, and because this specific hen had prior to laying the eggs never been with either of the males in the cage. The eggs predictably ended up being infertile and she promptly forgot about the eggs, but the extra calcium was probably needed at that time. But is having cuttlebones at other times dangerous in addition to the Roudybush diet?

Sorry for all the questions and thank you again!

 

[FaeryBee]

No, having the cuttlebone in the cage is not dangerous and I would not remove them.
Budgies know when their bodies need additional calcium.
Sometimes they will decimate a cuttlebone in a day or two and other times they won't touch it for months.

I use Roudybush pellets and I always keep both a cuttlebone and mineral block in my budgies' cages.

The pro-biotic you linked is perfectly fine for your budgies.

You can try Living World millet or Brown's Extreme Natural Millet -- both are available through Chewy.com

 

[hablandodebudgies]

Thank you very much for the recommendations!

As with the cuttlebone, I'm guessing it's also fine to give them vegetables in addition to Roudybush? Roudybush mentions on the website that you can add vegetables as a "minor" part of the diet. I was a bit worried. When one hen (Isabela) started laying infertile eggs, I knew I should supplement her diet but she's the most skittish of them all and I had never had any luck getting her to try egg food. However, since she already enjoyed vegetables, I decided to double up on the amount of vegetables clipped to the cage while she was laying the eggs in the hopes of getting her the additional nutrients she'd need. Specifically the carrots, since I've heard that broccoli is extremely nutritious but apparently can limit calcium absorption (the explanation I remember reading, is that broccoli has a substance which prevents the absorption of calcium from the broccoli itself but not calcium consumed from other foods, but I'm not entirely sure how true this is, there seems to be so much debate online about budgies eating broccoli and plants related to it). Isabela did eat more vegetables, which I hope was helpful, and since it was clipped to the cage, so did all the budgies. I'm wondering now if that might have been too many carrots to add to Roudybush? But then, none of the others exception Napoleon seemed to react badly to the increase in carrots.

I just got off the phone with the vet who saw Napoleon yesterday. It was a bit unusual to me that she didn't recognize Roudybush as a brand, but she looked it up online as we were talking. She couldn't find where it said not to add vitamins to Roudybush, only where it said that vitamins weren't needed, and I didn't have time to find the page during the short phone call. She didn't seem to think it would be a problem adding vitamins to Roudybush, but her suggestion was that, if I was worried about combining the vitamin and Roudybush, to switch them to Zupreem Pure Fun and the vitamins for a while. She thought a probiotic would be fine. Now I'm not sure about changing their diet when Napoleon is under the weather. I wonder if I should give him the Lafeber vitamins for a brief time, to see if Napoleon improves, and then stop to make sure they don't have a toxic overdose of vitamins.

EDIT: Zupreem Pure Fun and Roudybush have very similar vitamins. Has it been a mistake to mix these two?