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No, you haven't made a mistake in mixing the Zupreen and the Roudybush -- there is no problem that they have similar vitamins.
The budgies are only going to eat a certain amount of either or both. It isn't as if they are going to double their pellet intake.

You can give your budgies plenty of vegetables when they are on a primarily pelleted diet.

Safe Foods for Budgies

Is Nepoleon still lethargic and stumbling?

It sounds as if your Avian Vet believes your budgie is suffering from Ataxia.
As Cody indicated in her earlier post on this thread, the underlying cause can be many different things.
I'm surprised that the Avian Vet did not do a CBC and fecal gram stain at the very minimum.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Thank you very much for your advice! I was surprised the vet didn't do more exams. At the time, she seemed concerned over how stressed Napoleon became during the physical exam, which might have affected her decision not to do exams given that physical exam didn't reveal any problems, for good or for bad. If I'm honest, it also affected my decision not to ask for more, because I've seen my oldest budgie once become ill from the stress of being transported to a very distant vet a few years ago. Napoleon was more active in the carrier than he had been during the day in the cage at home, but after the exam, he was clearly stressed energetic.

When we got home from the vet, and during today, Napoleon is minimally better. He's clearly more alert at times. Last night he watched me as I was cleaning the cage, something he didn't have the energy to do previous days. Today he spent most of the day sleeping with his beak under his wing, like previous days. And he still stumbles when he tries to preen or move about. Earlier, I noticed brief tail bobbing, but that stopped after about 2 pm. Having said that, I've also seen him awake and sitting on the highest perch, less fluffed up than previous days and more alert. I'm still very concerned, but there are positive signs.

Looking up ataxia online, I don't believe the vet meant that. She asked about injuries, but didn't focus on that once I told her he hadn't been injured. The vet moreso seemed to think the change in weather had been hard on him.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 · (Edited)
Yes. Only a couple of the symptoms apply, though it might only need to be a couple to cause some illness or problem that in turn causes ataxia, so I didn't know what to think. It didn't seem like the vet meant ataxia, though.

From the page:
  • Standing with legs splayed wide for balance (No)
  • Using their beak to hang onto the cage or other objects to remain standing (No)
  • Uncoordinated movements of their head, wings or legs (Not of the head and wings, but definitely of the legs)
  • Lethargy or excessive sleepiness (Definitely)
  • Falling from their perch (No)
  • Difficulty breathing including stretching their neck and leaning forward to breathe, open mouth breathing, puffing out their cheeks with each breath or bobbing their tail with each breath (No, except for brief and occasional tail bobbing)
As for the weather explanation, I haven't heard about the weather causing illness either, though admittedly because illness from drafts and illness-like symptoms from sick molts occur, the explanation sounded plausible.

One ongoing positive sign with Napoleon is his appetite. He eats so much more than the rest. I've been watching more when he's at the food bowls and I don't think he's picking. He looks exactly like the other three when they eat, except for much longer.
 

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Weather changes might cause respiratory issues.
I just can't understand how it would affect a budgie neurologically (stumbling) unless it is something to do with the inner ear.
If it were me, I would ask for clarification from the vet on exactly how she thinks the weather changes could be causing Neopolean's problems.

Neopolean isn't over-weight even though he eats more than the others, is he?
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Thank you. I'll need to call the vet tomorrow when the clinic opens.

No, he's not overweight. When they weighed him on Monday, he was 33 grams, which seems normal for an Australian style budgie. He should be about 7 or 8 months old.

Today Napoleon was more or less the same, lethargic and unbalanced when he moves but as I'm writing this he's eating. This morning, the Lafeber vitamin powder arrived in the mail and I added a small amount (less than the instructions indicated) to the food bowls. I didn't want to add too much given the possibility of vitamin toxicity, but I don't think for a few days it will cause them any problems. The budgies seemed to notice something was different with food because they, particularly Napoleon, avoided the food bowls for a while before decided to eat like normal.

The probiotic was supposed to arrive today, but it seems it'll arrive tomorrow. When that comes, is adding it to the food fine?
 

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Yes, you can add the probiotic along with the vitamin supplement to the food.

I agree with you that using the vitamin supplement for a few days to see if it helps should not cause any issues.

33 grams is a fine weight for your little fellow!
 

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Hello and thank you! I've read the information and it's a great help. But a problem has come up with my youngest budgie (bought late February) and I'm not sure what's wrong. Since Thursday evening, he's been extremely lethargic and weak. Thursday was the worst as he just wouldn't move at all. Subsequent days were slightly better. He has a little more energy and shows interest if I say put broccoli in the cage. I see him preening from time to time. But he seems very weak. He sleeps constantly and stumbles easily and often while moving or even while preening and eating. His wings often tremble too. Some tail bobbing while he's sleeping, which is getting more pronounced late today.

The confusing part is besides this, there's been very little sign of illness. No discharge from the cere, the vent is clean, the poop looks normal. His feathers are bright and vibrant. He has an amazing appetite (I feed them Roudybush pellets with some Zupreem Pure Fun). When he's not sleeping, he's at the food bowls, and he eats much more than my other 3 budgies. When they go to eat, he easily spends 10-20 minutes more than the rest eating.

If I offer him millet, he instantly wakes up and eats longer than the rest. The last time I gave him millet, he stood on my hand and ate, though he stumbled on my hand and eventually went to a perch to eat where he seemed to be steadier. I've stopped giving them millet because I noticed one of my other budgies spit up bits of millet taken from the same bag (Kaytee), and on another day another budgie spit up millet too, so I'm wondering if there might have been a problem with the millet.

My other three budgies aren't showing any signs of illness like the youngest. They're happy and active as usual.

The youngest did go through a similar period in April, when I believe he was molting. I don't know if he's molting again. Lately there's been a lot of feathers around the cage, but I'm not sure if these belong to him or the others. I didn't take him to the vet back in April because he recovered much sooner and within a day was back to normal. Since then he has slept more than the rest while being a bit puffed up, but until Thursday, he didn't show any sign of weakness. Whenever he woke up, he was always alert and energetic, even if he slept more often. This was how it's been for months, again, until Thursday.

It was too late to call the vet when he started showing symptoms on Thursday, and Friday morning the secretary told me they wouldn't have an avian vet until Monday. The emergency clinic wouldn't have an avian vet until after Monday. So the plan is to call the usual vet first thing Monday. Still, I would really appreciate any insight or advice. Thank you very much and sorry for any bother.
How’s your feather baby now?
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Thank you for asking. It's hard to say. When Nepo's awake, he does seem more alert than before. I saw him climb to the highest perch to play with one of toys, so that's good. He used to move from perch to perch by climbing, but recently I've seen him fly more often for brief periods.

But he's still... weak? He seems weak to me. If he's still, sleeping or standing still, or if he's flying, he has no problem balancing. But when he walks, whether along a perch or from food bowl to food bowl or to reach a toy or while preening, he'll stumble occasionally. After he stumbles a couple times, he'll fluff up and sit still for a bit. He's still lethargic and spends most of the day sleeping. Sometimes I see him on the lowest perch near the food bowls.

The vitamins arrived yesterday and the probiotics today, so I've been able to give him a little of both. Ever since I started adding these, he eats slightly less. I don't know if the vitamins and probiotic change the taste or if he is losing appetite. But because he normally eats so much more than the rest, he's gone from eating more than my other budgies to eating about the same as they do, except during the last meal before going to bed when he continues to eat significantly more, so I'm not worried about his appetite.

It is confusing because there are clear symptoms of something wrong between the lack of energy and general weakness, but absolutely no other signs of illness. No discharge from the cere, the poop is normal and the vent is clean, no sneezing, no difficulty breathing, and if his appetite decreased slightly, he still overall eats more than the rest. If I approach the cage with millet or vegetables, or even if I just replace the food in the bowls, he immediately becomes very attentive. So he does have some energy and clear interest in food. But it's just the sleepiness all day and the stumbling that are really confusing. I'm still trying to get in contact with the vet clinic to ask more about that.
 

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Hello and a very late welcome to the forums!

FaeryBee and Cody have given great advice and I agree completely. I hope things go well for your little one :( 🤞🏻

Meanwhile, you’ve come to a great place to learn even more about the best of budgie care practices! Please be sure to have a look around the forums’ many budgie articles and “stickies” to ensure you’re up to date on everything! If you have questions after doing so, please be sure to ask as we’d love to help.

Please keep us posted!

Cheers! 👋
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Thank you very much. I really appreciate all the help and well wishes. I'm going to try to contact the vet I visited on Monday again tomorrow. I tried making an appointment today with my usual vet, but no luck until next week.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 · (Edited)
The clinic we went to on Monday said the vet who attended Napoleon would be working next Monday, so I'm calling again then. So far Napoleon is... I think minimally better? He's slightly more energetic, but still sleeps most of the day.
 

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You are NOT a bother. I want to do whatever I ca to try to help you through the problems with Napoleon.
Napoleon is definitely not well. I can see that he is having trouble balancing himself and it looks as though he is also breathing a bit heavily.
Napoleon is a beautiful boy and I really hope you can get some more definitely answers when you talk to the vet on Monday.
 

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The vitamins and probiotics will help with Napoleon's immune system which is a good thing.

The stumbling is a different story and I still haven't come to terms with why your vet thinks that the weather change is the cause of that unless he has a middle ear infection that was exacerbated by the change in weather.

If the breathing and/or tail bobbing become more pronounced, then I'd suggest using a WARM mist humidifier in the room with the budgies' cage.
You can add a drop or two of 100% pure Eucalyptus Essential Oil to the water which helps to open the airways.
 

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I agree with FaeryBee that Napoleon is not well. It is quite common for a bird to look well when at the vet when in fact they are not well and if no tests are done the issue will not be uncovered. I would show the vet the video where he is puffed up at about the 1:20 minute point in what you posted. In watching the whole video I am wondering if the problem might be in the feet and legs, perhaps there is pain in perching and moving and that translates into the stumbling. One thing that can effect the feet and legs is articular gout, which can be very painful, it effects the joints and visceral gout which effects the internal organs, here is some info on gout, it might be worth asking the vet if there is a chance that could be the issue. Gout in Birds | PetMD At the very least I would have the vet do a fecal gram stain test, all this requires is a fresh dropping, it is nothing invasive to the bird.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
I appreciate all of the information! Without having spoken to the vet again, just based on her original comments, I think she interpreted his stumbling as a sign of general weakness that could have been provoked by various environmental factors, including possibly the change in weather.

Regarding gout, it would explain the stumbling. Reading about it, it seems both visceral and articular gout have unusual poop as a possible sign, but his is normal. Still something to consider.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 · (Edited)
Ever since this started, I've been suspicious of that one bag of Kaytee. I can't prove anything without tests, obviously, but I've given my budgies millet for years, practically since we got them, and only two times in those years have my budgies ever spit up the millet. Once was I accidentally bought flavored Kaytee millet, which they spit up and refused to eat. And the next time was these past couple weeks, when Isabela (the yellow budgie from the video) spit up millet one day, and a few days later Condorito (the white budgie from the video) spit up millet. I give them millet just before bedtime, and both times they spit it up, each very briefly showed symptoms of illness, like puffing up, but both completely recovered when I woke them up the next day. It's just too much of coincidence to me that two of my four budgies spit up the millet for the first time in years, and then the youngest (and possible the physically weakest given the young age, who also loved millet the most and consistently ate millet the most) becomes this sick. It's speculation without proof and tests, which will come as soon as I can, but this just gives me a bad feeling.

FaeryBee mentioned Living World and Brown instead of Kaytee, which sounded familiar. Looking it up on Chewy, Brown is exactly the millet I used to buy for them (specifically BROWN'S Extreme Natural Millet Spray Bird Treats, 7-oz bag - Chewy.com and BROWN'S Tropical Carnival Natural Spray Millet Bird Treats, 7 count - Chewy.com), before switching some time ago to Kaytee because the millet sprays in Kaytee bags were bigger and so I thought it was healthier. Imagine my reaction when I start researching Kaytee now and see a lot of people online refusing to buy it for their birds (as well as other Kaytee products for other animals) because of bad quality, problems with recalls, and so on. It's concerning, to say the least. It might or might not explain why Napoleon showed similar symptoms but recovered quickly on April 6 (they were eating Kaytee millet then too, but obviously a different bag), it might end up having to do with this problem, because I don't have proof, but still.
 
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