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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
Thank you. Yes, it's a general vitamin with vitamin A, D3, E, K, B12, Niacin, d-Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Biotin, and Choline Bitartrate. D3 is 125,000 IU per Kilogram, 15.6 IU per one measure (125 mg). Hopefully then the vitamin powder is fine. Thank you for the article, it's great.
 

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I won't use Kaytee products at all because of all the bad reviews and recalls.
You could be right about that being the cause of Napoleon's illness but without testing you won't know for sure.
I'm SO sorry you are going through this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Thank you. I won't be using Kaytee products anymore, either. The more I watch Napoleon, though, the more sure I am the problem is in his legs. If he has to fly from perch to perch, he seems to do so without any difficulty. But yesterday and today he's been so unbalanced when moving around with his feet. Luckily he still has a great appetite, and despite frequently losing his balance, he tries to preen etc. I'm hopeful that with the right diagnosis and treatment, he'll be able to recover.
 

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Sending lots of love, prayers and healing energy for your sweet Napoleon.
I've thought from the beginning that his problem was something neurological -- although Cody's suggestion of it being Gout also makes perfect sense.
I hope the Avian Vet is able to properly diagnose the problem and get the right treatment protocol in place.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Thank you very much. I really appreciate how helpful you and everyone here have been. It could be neurological or gout, or anything else affecting the legs. Hopefully another vet visit with tests will reveal what the source of the problem. One question. I know I should be clear about how important a fecal exam and bloodwork are. I really don't want to make the mistake of leaving the vet this time without the necessary tests. Is there anything else I should ask about? Is there a specific way I should a request for a fecal exam or bloodwork, to make sure I explain clearly?
 

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You can ask that a gram stain test be done on the droppings and as for the blood work a CBC would be a place to start. Have you been able to get a good look at the bottom of the feet and check for bumblefoot? Do you know how much bird experience the vet you are seeing has? Have a look at this to help you better understand various tests Understanding Avian Laboratory Tests by Peter S Sakas...
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
Thank you for your advice and the great article. With a blood test, you've mentioned it could be done just by clipping a nail? I have been looking frequently at Napoleon's feet. It could be a huge mistake on my part, but I haven't actually tried to grab him to look more closely. I didn't want to stress him, especially since I know he's going to be stressed when he goes to the vet again in these coming days. But from watching him in the cage, I can't see any sores on his feet that would indicate bumblefoot. I hope that it isn't it. I've always heard to have a variety of different natural perches to avoid bumblefoot, and so that's what I've done. I also haven't seen the white spots that would indicate gout. I've read online that in some cases some birds have a lot of small white spots, and in other cases larger white spots like lumps. I can't see any. But something is clearly wrong his feet.

I'm not sure how much experience the vet who saw Napoleon last Monday has. I spent a long time that morning calling every vet in our area and asking for an avian vet. Everywhere either had an avian vet but no appointments, or didn't see birds at all. This is a problem I've had several times in the past. I'm fortunate to live somewhere with several avian vets, even if at far distance from my home, but it's always near impossible to get an appointment.

The website for the clinic I went to last Monday doesn't mention much information about their vets. The facebook page for the clinic does mention that the vet treats exotic pets like birds and reptiles. I was a little worried by the fact that she didn't recognize Roudybush at all when we talked about whether the Lafeber vitamins should be added to Roudybush. When I went to the clinic, she took Napoleon to another room, which was darker and Napoleon would be less stressed, to examine his heart and lungs. At least at the time, she seemed knowledgeable. If I remember correctly, she had said that with budgies being so delicate, any small factor could cause illness, even the change in weather. I took out my cellphone to ask for which vitamins she recommended and she pointed at the Lafeber vitamins in the Google search, because she thought Lafeber was more trustworthy since Lafeber worked with vets to make their products.

It can be difficult to get an appointment at our usual vet clinic. I know for a fact one of the vets there is has significant avian experience, but I've never been able to get an appointment with him. Usually when I can get an appointment it's with another younger vet who according to their website treats birds and reptiles. It's not mentioned on the website, but he's mentioned owning a conure in the past. I had a budgie back in 2017-2018 whose beak kept growing unusually long. This vet examined that budgie several times, though as far as I remember never did any tests beyond a physical examination. He always concluded that the budgie seemed fine and said that he couldn't feel any growths during the physical exam. He seemed knowledgeable when we spoke to him. That budgie sadly passed away suddenly when she was about 8 months old.
 

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I would try again to get an appointment with your usual vet even if it is weeks out and meanwhile work with the vet that saw him last time. It does seem odd that a vet that works with birds does not recognize the brand Roudybush and as far as the vitamins go Dr. Labfeber, now deceased, is the vet that developed many of the Lafeber products. Yes a nail clip can be the source of blood for a small bird, in my opinion any vet that is doing blood work on birds should be familiar with this procedure but I think you should ask the vet what method is used and if the tests are done in house. I know that my vet collects via a nail clip on small birds and the blood is directly collected in microhematocrit tubes and tests such as a CBC run in house so the results are available within 30 minutes, this takes special equipment and not all vets have this capability, some have to send the samples out to a lab. You can always ask the vet or the techs how much experience the vet there has with birds. I would start with the least invasive test which is the fecal gram stain, if that does not reveal anything then perhaps consider other tests.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 · (Edited)
Napoleon's been a bit worse over the weekend. He tries to climb to the highest swings and perches, and he gets there. It's just very hard for him to balance. He loses balance very easily while doing anything, which I'm guessing is partially why he spends so much time puffed up and sleeping.

We just got back from the vet clinic. It wasn't really a productive visit. I explained Napoleon's symptoms, but the vet didn't know what the problem could be. She said they could do a fecal test, but said she wasn't comfortable doing a blood test on such a small bird. With a larger bird, she would be willing to try an injection, but with a budgie she was concerned it might hurt him. In fact, she said Napoleon looked so stressed she didn't want to touch him at all for the examination for fear of causing him more stress and possibly harming him. Instead she said we try giving him Baytril for a week, but she said she had to go check what was the correct dosage for a budgie. The vet actually recommended we take him to a different vet she said she had worked with, which turned out to be the younger vet who works at the usual vet clinic I go to. So I called my usual clinic, and the first appointment they had available was for Friday Oct. 22, so that's when we'll be going.

In the meantime, I was able to get a video of Napoleon's legs and feet while he was in the carrier. I think his feet and legs look fine, but something has to be bothering him.

Should I give him the Baytril? There's a dropper that has measurements starting at 0.1 and ending at 1, where it says ml/cc. The instructions are to give Napoleon 0.01 every day for ten days. Does this sound okay?
 

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I don't understand why the vet would prescribe Baytril (which is a broad-spectrum antibiotic) when she doesn't know what the cause of the problem is.
Antibiotics only work on BACTERIAL infections.
Unneeded antibiotics may lead to future antibiotic-resistant infections.

I would suggest you put Napoleon in a small "hospital" cage and provide him with flat perches and ramps.

When you called your regular vets office did you ask that they contact you if there are any cancellations and explain that your budgie is rapidly getting worse?
Let them know you believe this a very serious condition and are concerned that the longer the wait for the vet visit, the greater the chances are the budgie will not recover as well.

Sometimes vet clinics have "emergency" appointments and since that is your regular vet they may try to accommodate you more than they would a "new client".
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
I'll call my regular vet again. We did agree they would let me know if anyone cancelled since I called them last week. I'll try asking again if they might be able to help with an emergency visit.
 

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Oiy... so sorry that he's going through this :(
Hopefully the next vet will be better equipped to answer this?

Is there any possibility of finding another avian vet who may not be as close and making a trip out of it?

When you called your regular vets office did you ask that they contact you if there are any cancellations and explain that your budgie is rapidly getting worse?
Let them know you believe this a very serious condition and are concerned that the longer the wait for the vet visit, the greater the chances are the budgie will not recover as well.

Sometimes vet clinics have "emergency" appointments and since that is your regular vet they may try to accommodate you more than they would a "new client".
100%, this was how it was for me with my ferrets when they were not doing well
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
Thank you everyone. My regular vet clinic is generally good, with two of the three vets working there having a good amount of experience with birds. At least, when I've been there before, they've always been able my questions. It's just difficult to get an appointment, especially after COVID started. But if I can find a more experienced avian vet who can give me an appointment sooner, even if it's farther, I'll be taking Napoleon.
 

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.01 is a pretty standard dose of Baytril, I have given it at that dosage many times.
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Thank you for the information! I've used that page before, but I'll try again. Also, depending on whether I can get another appointment soon, I may briefly try the Baytril while waiting for another appointment.
 
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