[hablandodebudgies]

Thanks everyone! It's great advice

 

[hablandodebudgies]

I've emailed the vet this same video. Just in case, here's a short video of Napoleon eating some millet before I covered the cage tonight. Ever since Friday, I've been thinking his beak looks way too long. I can't believe it took me this long to notice. I've been reading that sinusitis could be a cause of overgrown beaks, which would go along with it being an infection like the vet says (would it be an infection Baytril can treat?) Then there's fatty liver disease, and Napoleon does have trouble breathing and a loss of balance, but I really hope that isn't the case. One side of his beak also seems to have a white thing? I'm not sure if it's peeling or a bit of food or what it could be.

 

[FaeryBee]

His beak is too long and I'm surprised the Avian Vet did not comment on that fact when you had him in for his check-up.

Here is an article regarding Hepatic-Lipidosis (Fatty Liver Disease)
Hepatic Lipidosis

How much millet are you giving Napoleon on a daily basis?
Millet is high in fat content.

 

[hablandodebudgies]

The vet didn't comment on it during the check up, but he did respond earlier to an email I sent about this. He agreed the beak was too long. He said he didn't want to trim the beak until we saw if he was responding well to treatment and feeling better, but he didn't directly address my question about fatty liver. I sent another email and I'll bring it up with him when I call tomorrow. Thank you very much for the article. It's been about two weeks that I haven't given Napoleon any millet at all. Prior to this sickness, I would usually let him and the rest of the budgies eat millet for a few minutes before bed. I've never put the millet in the cage without holding it and I've never let them eat freely, only from my hand for between 5-10 minutes. I was aware of how much fat it had, but I was hoping that wasn't too much.

 

[hablandodebudgies]

Update: I called the vet this morning and he returned my call just now. The vet says the gram stain came back normal. Because Napoleon didn't get a full dose on Thursday, when I tried to give him the Baytril on a piece of millet instead of directly in the beak, the vet says it can take a little longer to improve. The vet says to continue the medication until the end of the week and see if Napoleon improves by then.

 

[hablandodebudgies]

I spoke to the vet again today. Napoleon is mostly the same, not worse, but not better. He occasionally seems a bit more energetic. For example, Saturday he briefly was singing to one of the female budgies, and yesterday he managed to scratch his head with his leg a couple times, something he couldn't do previous days. But these are brief moments and he's still sleeping most of the day and loses his balance easily. I've explained this and more to the vet. I asked whether given the lack of improvement a different medicine would be better, or whether we should do additional tests, or if the Baytril needs more time to show effects. He said antibiotics typically last 10 to 14 days and they typically have birds on the antibiotics for that long. The vet would like me to continue the Baytril until next week. Tomorrow makes one week of giving the Baytril. Should Napoleon have shown more improvement by now?

 

[Cody]

Hard to say about improvement, if a bacterial infection is not the issue then improvement would not be expected also if it is some type of stubborn bacterial infection and the Baytril is not the right antibiotic for it then again little improvement would be expected.

 

[FaeryBee]

When I had to give Baytril to one of my budgies, it took about 10 days for me to see a noticeable improvement.
However, as Cody indicated, Baytril may not be the correct antibiotic if it is a more serious bacterial infection.
If the symptoms are due to a viral or fungal infection, antibiotics don't work for those.

 

[hablandodebudgies]

Thanks to everyone for the advice and insight! Also, I asked my vet about twice regarding probiotics, and this is why. The vet said it was okay to give probiotics with the antibiotics, just give it 2 hours separating the one from the other. But I recently was looking at the website where I bought the probiotic (Avi-culture-2-PLUS, The Finest, Live, 10-Strain, GMO-FREE, 100% ORGANIC, Avian-Specific Probiotic/Prebiotic/Essential Enzyme/Amino Acid Blend), and it specifically says, "Do not use in conjunction with a regimen of antibiotics as this probiotic will weaken the medication as it instead kills the multitude of beneficial bacterium in this probiotic and it will not be as effective in wiping out the pathogenic bacteria it was prescribed for in the first place." I genuinely did not remember this last week when we started giving Napoleon the antibiotic. I kept giving the probiotic because I had read about how common yeast infections could be with Baytril, but now I'm wondering if this is partially why the antibiotic is taking longer to be effective. The vet still says it's fine, but I've stopped the probiotic until we finish the antibiotic.

 

[FaeryBee]

The Avian Vets I've been to have indicated that pro-biotics should NOT be given in conjunction with antibiotics.
Everything I've read has said the same.
I always advise members not to give pro-biotics until the full course of antibiotics has been completed.

 

[hablandodebudgies]

That was certainly a mistake. I'm concerned now I may have made another mistake. Today when I went to prepare the dropper to give Napoleon the Baytril, the dropper was empty. I'm very concerned because I'm not sure if I have or have not given Napoleon the full amount. On Thursday Oct. 16, I put a drop of Baytril on a piece of millet to see if it would be possible to give the medicine to Napoleon without having to restrain him and put it directly in the beak. So I know that Napoleon could NOT have taken all of the Baytril. However, I was sure I should have more than I did, at least enough for the weekend. The clinic I usually go to is closed until Monday now, so in the meantime I've called the clinic which first treated Napoleon. I explained the situation on the phone, and the secretary offered to ask the vet working today his advice. The vet working today does not treat birds, but since he was only the vet I could get in contact with, I asked the secretary to please explain the situation to him.

The vet working today said that giving the medicine for the correct number of days is more important than the exact dosage amount, and since we started administering the medicine in the beak Friday Oct. 17, the clinic is giving a refill for enough Baytril until Wednesday, as that would make the 10 days total. When I was initially given the Baytril, I was told the dropper had a little more than 10 days' worth in case I made a mistake. I would greatly appreciate any and all advice. I've already emailed my usual vet clinic explaining the situation, but I don't think I could in contact with any avian vet on this short notice on a weekend.

Napoleon has been slightly better today and yesterday. While still unbalanced, he loses balance less often while preening, he's sleeping less and more alert when he's awake. I don't want to give him too little and risk him backsliding, but I also don't want to give him too much.

EDIT: Just got back from the clinic. They gave me the doses in individual droppers, one per day.

 

[Cody]

Just continue giving the Baytril as prescribed, if a dose was missed you can extend the number of days that he is getting it.

 

[hablandodebudgies]

Thank you for the advice. I gave him the Baytril today. Since the clinic gave me individual droppers, I at least know that today's amount was exactly right. I'm more concerned about possibly having given him more than I was supposed to, since I ran out of Baytril before I thought I would. Is what the vet said right? Is it more important to give the Baytril the correct number of days than it is to give the right quantity?

 

[Cody]

There have been times when I have used Baytril and the dose was .02ml twice a day, so I don't think a little extra one time will make any difference. It is important to give the antibiotic for a specific length of time because it takes a certain amount of time to fully kill off the pathogenic bacteria.

 

[hablandodebudgies]

I think I gave him extra once, but with it running out ealier than expected, I wonder if it was more than once? I was sure it had been the 0.01 before today, though. In any case, thank you very much. If 0.04 a day is fine in some cases, then it should be okay. And Napoleon has definitely seemed more lively recently.

 

[hablandodebudgies]

Update on Napoleon: He was doing very badly Sunday and Monday two weeks ago when I last posted, unable to perch, etc. I managed to get an emergency visit at my usual vet, who decided to try a two injections of doxycycline, one last week and a second this week, and metacam administered for ten days. Napoleon was doing really well after that! It was nothing like the slight improvement with baytril. He was still unbalanced, as the vet said Napoleon wasn't out of the woods yet, but he was active, he wasn't sleeping all day anymore, and he was chirping so much!

Unfortunately, early today, I heard a loud noise from the cage. He was still with my other budgies, as the vet said not to separate them unless the others were bullying him. When I went to check on them, everyone seemed fine. I even picked up Napoleon and looked him over, but I didn't notice anything at that time.

But when I later got a better look at him, he seemed to have a cut on his leg. I suspect one of my female budgies, who's been laying eggs (which I've replaced with dummy eggs) might have bit him. I both emailed and called my vet, but the secretary said the vet who treated Napoleon wouldn't come to the office until Thursday. For the moment, I've separated him in a small hospital cage.

Should I do thing else to make him feel comfortable? He's currently sitting in the hospital cage, but he seems uneasy and scared, and hasn't eaten. Is there anything I can do to help him until Thursday's vet visit?

 

[Cody]

I don't see anything, is it on the leg or toe, is it bleeding?

 

[hablandodebudgies]

It's not currently bleeding. It's small, thank goodness

 

[Cody]

He may be a bit traumatized from the ordeal and also may not like being in the hospital cage. I would just keep him separate and see if he seems to be in any pain from the wound, see if he will eat a small piece of millet.

 

[hablandodebudgies]

Thank you. I agree, he seems to be upset from the new environment. Earlier he kept making a really unusual noise, but only when approached by the other female budgie. I have some millet in the hospital cage along with his usual food, but he's been clinging to the side of the cage since I gave him today's dose of metacam.