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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So here I am at a Quarter til 2 in the morning, With a head ache and bored outta my skull , I decided to go back to the Genetic calculator and play around with it some more - So I can understand it better ( I could read on it all day and won't understand it I'm the sort of person who has to see pictures of how something is done or just do it to understand it)

So I'm using Pairs that have already been bred and I know what their babies were To help better under stand OR so that was my plan!

I used Mickey and Minnie Both Yellow Face Violets

they only had one baby before Mickey died (almost a year ago) and That is Gizmo - what is Gizmo A WHITE FACE Violet (double factor i'm assuming because his color matches the Crayola Crayon Purple to a T it is actually PURPLE and not "violet")

well ever since Gizmo was born ( a year ago Jan 14th) Its been bugging me that both his parents were Yellow face but he wasn't

I assumed when you put 2 yellow faces together That is what the babies will have as well

And according to the genetic calculator They should of had 100% yellow face babies * See below*

So why is it then that Gizmo is a white face? :S

is it possiable he is not just a double factor violet BUT also a Double Factor Yellow Face ( I know those look like normal white faces)


% from all 1.0
25.0% 1.0 bl.yellowface
25.0% 1.0 bl.yellowface violet(df)
50.0% 1.0 bl.yellowface violet(sf)
% from all 0.1
25.0% 0.1 bl.yellowface
25.0% 0.1 bl.yellowface violet(df)
50.0% 0.1 bl.yellowface violet(sf)


and I have Gizmo set up to breed with Jessie who is a yellow face Violet Opaline (they're in a breeding cage but I have not yet given them a nest box that will be in a few weeks) but i wanted to see exactly what their babies out come should be - i know it should be all violets BUT since I only got to breed Mickey successfully one time (2nd clutch she had started then he died and she finished like 2 or 3 days after he died were all infertile) So I do not know if Mickey was split to anything to pass on to Gizmo

So to add to the confusion my birds love to give me Why Do I have a White Face Violet when i should have a yellow face violet?



and I am truly sorry for all the Questions I've had lately BUT I really am trying to learn this entire genetic thing (now this is what my daughter wants to do for her science fair project coming up in a few months & She is in a higher grade then her brother So its more suited for her than it is for him) and So i want to understand it for my self because well I want to know how it works ( i was never good in science so this isn't helping my issues lol) PLUS i'll need to help her understand (ALSO NOT GOOD IN SCIENCE LOL) so she can do a awesome science project :) and I can get smart on Budgie Genetics and work my way to Love bird and Cockatiels (which I understand Cockatiel genetics A LOT BETTER then budgies lol)
 

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I can't make the calculator get the right answer for yellow face mutations because it doesn't give an option for single or double factor in the yellow face section. The result shouldn't be 100% yellow face when mating single factor yellow faces together

It seems to work for all the other mutations
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
that explains why it it told me that lol

How do you know if a Violet is a double factor Yellow Face?

I know on Sky blue it changes their color

But on Minnie there are times if she's sitting just the right way or i catch her in mid fluff I can see yellow in her chest feathers but I don't see it all the time , just if i catch it at the right angle, light etc.

And I noticed that is has the option for Yellow face to be Split I didn't think a bird could be split to yellow face.. Either it was or it wasn't ?
 

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If Violet was a double factor yellow face all her chicks would be yellow face. You're right, they can't be split for yellow face. The calculator is set up wrong
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
oh ok , thank you

I was reading so much earlier on genetics it gave me a migraine :p

I wish i could find a better calculator But every single time i think i find a new one when the page loads it is that one just the person posting it calls it something else or just uses the words "genetic calculator" :mad:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I know the feeling. Ive only found one genetics calculator I can figure out, but its for lovebirds not budgies. If they could make one like this for budgies we'd all be a lot less genetically illiterate

http://www.africanlovebirdsociety.com/genetics/calculator.htm
The one i use has lovebirds along with other species

go here http://www.gencalc.com/ then down on he right hand side click love birds, then Peach face or which ever one your wanting and it opens up to that genetic calculator for the love birds

I still don't have this down pat, and Don't know what all the Abbreviation are about

Sorry I didn't answer you sooner - i just saw your reply.

I just used this one on Roxy and Pugsley - I have no clue in the world what blue Roxy is on this one, she's a double dark factor Dutch blue

the one u showed I can use and understand LOL plus it has Dutch blue :p
 

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The one i use has lovebirds along with other species

go here http://www.gencalc.com/ then down on he right hand side click love birds, then Peach face or which ever one your wanting and it opens up to that genetic calculator for the love birds

I still don't have this down pat, and Don't know what all the Abbreviation are about

Sorry I didn't answer you sooner - i just saw your reply.

I just used this one on Roxy and Pugsley - I have no clue in the world what blue Roxy is on this one, she's a double dark factor Dutch blue

the one u showed I can use and understand LOL plus it has Dutch blue :p
yeah, that one that you're using is confusing :p and Double Dark Factor Dutch Blue is considered Slate :)
 

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hmm.... now I´m confused too... Ithought birds could be splitfor yellowface... so if not.. how do you get yellowfaces... you need two yellowfaces to get a yellowface... or a split yellowface... or so I thought
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
hmm.... now I´m confused too... Ithought birds could be splitfor yellowface... so if not.. how do you get yellowfaces... you need two yellowfaces to get a yellowface... or a split yellowface... or so I thought
no they can't be split one parent has to be yellow face

I thought they could be too specially when I put Sky and Violet together and every single one came out yellow face and both sky and violet have white heads/faces

then i found out about the double factor type 1 - that is actually a yellow face but looks like a white face But i still don't know which one is the double factor type 1 , because silly me Bred sky to belle who is light green So again all babies come out with "yellow heads" well actually they all came out looking like Belle only some cinnamon (from sky) and some grey wing from belle lol
 

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hmm.... now I´m confused too... Ithought birds could be splitfor yellowface... so if not.. how do you get yellowfaces... you need two yellowfaces to get a yellowface... or a split yellowface... or so I thought
They can't be split I don't think, but yellow series budgies can mask YF
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
yeah, that one that you're using is confusing :p and Double Dark Factor Dutch Blue is considered Slate :)
yep i found that out - when she was a baby and getting feathers in I swore she was a slate, she was Grey as grey could be then she got older and in certain lights looked olive, then i just got confused but now i know shes slate lol
 

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Ok, i apologise in advance for hijacking this thread to further my own genetics cause but here is my question.

A single yellow face gene allows production of yellow pigment in a bird otherwise white based. This works on a similar level to violet factor, or dark factor. Theoretically, a double dose of 'yellow face type 1 gene' should produce double factor yellow face type 1's. That is to say, a double dose of the gene - resulting in stronger yellow production.

However, it seems to have been the (relatively) unquestioned 'fact' that two yellowfaces make white faces. That is to say you can have a white face (zero yellow factor) or a 'white face' (double factor yellow face one). This flies in the face of everything i have learnt about genetics and yet most people seem to swallow it.

I always found the double factor yellow face = white face thing to be a glaring contradiction. But i couldnt figure out the solution until i read pete burgmans article. I have read it, and re-read it and posted a lengthy breakdown of it with pictures on another website to help others SEE what pete is trying to explain (it qas hard to grasp even for me).

Here is pete burgmans article on his theory of yellow face genetics - http://www.birdhobbyist.com/parrotcolour/peter/yface01.html
Here is the link to my breakdown of his theory with some pictures posted in another budgie forum under Dean NZ (3rd page of the topic) - http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index.php?showtopic=24331&st=20

here is a snippet that might help:
* Mutant 1 Blues have two b1 alleles so can only make (b1) enzyme; therefore no yellow.
* Mutant 2 Blues have two b2 alleles so can only make (b2) enzyme; therefore no yellow.
* Mutant 1 Yellowfaces have one b1 allele and one b2 allele; and so can make both types of defective enzyme.

Therefore b1 allele and one b2 allele is the typical yellowface mutant 1:

Once more:

* Pure Greens BB produce (B/B) enzyme.
* Mutant 1 Blues b1b1 produce (b1/b1) enzyme.
* Mutant 2 Blues b2b2 produce (b2/b2) enzyme.
* 'Mutant 1' Yellowfaces b1b2 produce both (b1/b1) enzyme and (b2/b2) enzyme.

The 'Mutant 1' Yellowface is really only a by-product of the interaction of two different kinds of Blue. There is no 'Mutant 1' Yellowface allele or more precisely it was incorrectly named in the first place. Neither of the two blue alleles is dominant or recessive to the other. They stand at the bottom of the allelic dominance hierarchy on an equal footing B › bg › by2 › b1, b2. This type of inheritance pattern has sometimes been called 'allelic complementation'
So basically, a yellow face type one is b1b2 (genetically speaking). Cross two of those, do a punnet square and you get 25% b1b1 (white face) 50 % b1b2 (yellowface) and 25% b2b2 (white face). The theory is that the first blue bird to appear had a defective yellow producing gene - b1b1. Green birds have a perfectly functional gene - BB. years later, a second defective gene appeared that still made blue birds - b2b2. However, the b1 defect was on a different part of the allele than the b2 defect, and when mixed together -b1b2, they compensated for eachothers defects and were able to produce a weak but viable yellow pigment - creating yellow face ones.

Therefore what some people think of as "double factor white faces" are in fact either b1b1, or b2b2. Cross those and you will get 100% yellow face type 1's (b1b2) which is why sometimes people swear one of the parents is a double factor yellow face and the other is a 'normal' blue - not true!!.

Then later still we got the by2 (yellowface 2) gene. This is actually a semi-viable gene on its own, which is WHY you can get double factor YF2's - which look DIFFERENT to single factor YF2's. So you have a bird like i have in my aviary (augren from my breeding journal and his sons) who are genetically b1by2. This is where you get a yellow face with yellow that runs SMOOTHLY into the body colour, making it a seafoam green. When you get double factor yellowface 2's (im still checking this but im pretty sure that...), you get a deeper yellow in the face, and the yellow is concentrated in the body around the chest area (it doest run the whole length of the body).

Later AGAIN, we got the goldenface variety. The strongest of the defective yellow genes. I could go on to explain this, but i think you get the idea now. There are a number of composite varieties you can now get, which only further confuses some breeders. But every time i read petes article it makes more and more sense to me and i cant wait to test it through breeding over the years.

Hope i havent confused everyone even further! I have been meaning to write up a proper post explaining yellowface genes in light of petes theories (yes there are others out there, but i love the way pete sees things and i agree with his views).

Feel free to reply or ask me questions!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I believe i ran across his article the other day, I remember reading one page on yellow faces that kept referring to them as "mutant" and well that stuck in my head lol (probably because every time i read it i thought of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles)

when it gets scientific I get totally lost - I understand Yellow Face Type 1, I understand yellow face type 2, Golden face i know is more of just what some people refer to yellow face type 2 as, and to me it looks a deeper yellow then type 2 ,

but how they come about I don't get at all lol, But I do know they're dominate :D So thats a plus for me . lol I understand the Double factor where it makes the bird look like a white face, BUT i really wish there was some sort of indication when a bird had that :p
 

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I believe i ran across his article the other day, I remember reading one page on yellow faces that kept referring to them as "mutant" and well that stuck in my head lol (probably because every time i read it i thought of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles)

when it gets scientific I get totally lost - I understand Yellow Face Type 1, I understand yellow face type 2, Golden face i know is more of just what some people refer to yellow face type 2 as, and to me it looks a deeper yellow then type 2 ,

but how they come about I don't get at all lol, But I do know they're dominate :D So thats a plus for me . lol I understand the Double factor where it makes the bird look like a white face, BUT i really wish there was some sort of indication when a bird had that :p
Thats just it though, there is no double factor yellow face type one. You can get yellowfaces from gizmo, since he will either be b1b1 or b2b2 - he is not double factor yellow face per se, he is normal. Its just not clear what NORMAL (that is to say defective yellow producing) gene he has in double dose. You just need to breed him with his opposite and you will get 100% yellowface babies. Breed him with a yellowface and you will get 50% yellowface babies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thats just it though, there is no double factor yellow face type 2. You can get yellowfaces from gizmo, since he will either be b1b1 or b2b2 - he is not double factor yellow face per se, he is normal. Its just not clear what NORMAL (that is to say defective yellow producing) gene he has in double dose. You just need to breed him with his opposite and you will get 100% yellowface babies. Breed him with a yellowface and you will get 50% yellowface babies.
right now he is with a Yellow face violet Opaline.

Next time i breed him I'll most likely put him with some one else, Don't have to worry about any siblings of his, he was the only child and that'll give me time to figure out who I want to pair him with .

I am now breeding his mom with another male, But I highly doubt I keep any ,out of this clutch.
 

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You seem to be a big fan of violets (or just have a lot lol). Have you considered introducing the clearwing gene into your violets? I will be doing just that at some point. I just dont know if it will be in the 2 years i remain in NZ, or after i have moved to canada and settled somewhere.

I don't like the idea of starting a long term budgie breeding plan and working towards my 'ideal' when im not sure if i'll be in the same country :/
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
my favorite color is Purple and when i found out there were violet budgies I got one, and it just went from there, Granted Gizmo is the only one who looks purple the rest all are light to medium violet and Then there is Gizmo standing out like a sore thumb being the actual Color Purple just like the Crayola Crayon Purple :D

We're also more into getting mutations our local pet shops don't have :)

and our next adventure If i can ever find the pair i need is to get birds who look like this

My boyfriend bought her for me, we named her Candy because she looked like Salt Water Taffy Candy - But she died shortly after we got her.





 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
yep thats what Nev said a while back

now i have to find 2 Dominate pied sky blues both being split to recessive pied and one has to be a yellow face so i can have more of that mutation
 
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