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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been searching for several days now to find how this Frosted Pied Mutation works

Contacted a friend and she started searching as well

she came across this article

and it states there is NO such thing as a Frosted pied it's more or less another "term" (or word) used for Clear Flight pied - so If some one says your bird is a "frosted pied" It is in fact a CLEAR FLIGHT PIED

Frosted Pied)

Danny
As for Frosted Pied, it is best to assume that the Frosted Pied is
just one of several visual variations of the Dutch Dominant Pied.

I personally hate the term Frosted Pied because it appears to be yet
another example of people renaming existing varieties and also the
definition of the term "Frosted" actually varies depending on which
country you live or who taught you about Dutch Pieds. Different
people have different interpretations of what is a Frosted Pied.

Until such time as someone proves that a different gene or perhaps
another allele of Dutch Pied exists (which I doubt) it is safer and
simpler to refer to all of them as Dutch Dominant Pieds.

In Australia we generally refer to all visual forms of Dutch
Dominant Pieds as just that, Dutch Dominant Pieds. We avoid terms
like Frosted and Continental Clearflight as it appears all visual
types can be bred from all visual types.

In my own breeding of Dutch Dominant Pieds most of my stock were
originally of the "Frosted" type but after years of continual
outcrossing to normals the amount of Frosting and grizzled feathers
has gradually decreased to Clearflighted types and now further again
to birds that only have a Head spot and even no pied flights at all.
This MAY imply that modifier genes are involved in the degree of
visual "piedness". Another untested theory is that some of this
grizzled appearance may be an interaction with the Danish recessive
Pied gene (which also causes grizzled markings). A very high
proportion of Dutch Dominant Pieds are split for Danish Recessive
Pied. These theories are not sufficiently tested at the present time.

I believe Inte has done some study work on the markings of Dutch
Dominant Pieds and hereditary. He may be able to offer some
additional information/thoughts.

Ken Yorke
http://www2.tpg.com.au/users
From: http://pets.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Genetics-Psittacine/message/14907

so now I can stop beating my head against a wall trying to figure out how a mutation was made- when It never existed to start with - just people calling a existing mutation a different word
 

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Glad that you were able to gain peace of mind on this topic I noticed that it was being debated. Way to stick to your guns and hunt down a definitive answer. :D

This genetic business is complicated enough without all the alternative labels to muddy the pool even more..... :giggle:
 

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It's certainly interesting, even for someone like me who just likes admiring budgies without tangling myself up in the technicalities of mutation. I've had to write down my fids' mutations to ensure I remember what they are.:rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Joseph I agree and that is what always gets me confused - if every one would just call them by the same Name Preferably an Easy to remember it would make everyone's life much easier

I was starting to think it was just another word/term when I could not find a single article any where on how to Create ONE!

You can search for say Dark Eye Clear - it tells you it's a composite of a Clear Flight pied and a Recessive pied

or even a Lace wing it'll tell you its a composite of a Lutino (or Albino) with a cinnamon

but Not a single article I came across (which wasn't very many) said HOW they were created Just mentioned what they looked like.

and they did not do a very good job at describing them either! lol

now just if every one would get on the same page and Refer to mutations as the most commonly known name it would make it so much easier

like Dominant Pied - It's also known as an Australian Pied - BUT almost every one calls it a Dominant pied - So keep it named that! Less confusing it has a few other names too but the point is Keep calling them by their common names and no one will be confused :giggle:

I mean when the big time breeders from back in the day have nothing to say about a frosted pied or what they do say is it was never a mutation of its own just another word for a Clear Flight pied - then thats enough for me to know it's not a mutation of its own and it can't be made on its own - It's just depends on how those clear flight pieds feather out - since no 2 pieds are the same and all pieds have variation - Because they have variations to their markings - doesn't mean they get a whole new name!
 

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[FONT="Book Antiqua] it's not a mutation of its own and it can't be made on its own - It's just depends on how those clear flight pieds feather out - since no 2 pieds are the same and all pieds have variation - Because they have variations to their markings - doesn't mean they get a whole new name!
Well said, ATV! :)
 

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Frosted Pied----???

Hi

Please see www. bugegrigar.co.uk and enter Frosted pied. My Frosted Pied is featured. Frosted Pieds compete in class with clearflight/DutchPieds. World judge and Breeder Dr. Travencheck introduced the Frosted Pied to the US many years ago. My Frosted came in second to his at the ABS show. 12/3/11. If there is no Frosted Pied, a lot of English Budgie judges and breeders are crazy. You can believe what you will But when Didier Mervilide. and Glieb Al- Nassar. Gerald Binks, David Collier, to name a few- All breeders and world judges, agree there is such a thing and the photos of my bird are posted to be seen on the web and labeled as such. These people are the current world authorities plus a lot of others. My bird has been recognized across the US as well as others currently residing in Lousianna, Texas, here in Georgia and Europe probably elsewhere that I am not aware of. Write to Mr Binks. Contact me by PM and I will ask permission to put you in contact with Dr Travencheck, whose aviary I was honored to visit just yesterday.

Believe as you will but Members of BAA, ABS, UK, and Europe and other World breeders will continue to breed and show these wonderful rare/endangered birds. I do not need any ones permission to show this bird as it is, as it was recognized perhaps as much as 40 years ago and introduced to the US. I am a rare breeder. It is my business to be on top of the rare breeds and I am being mentored by a recognized rare breeder here in the US. All of my wins with my Frosted Pied this year are clearly published in the ABS and BAA Journals here in the US. Please do not make Frosted pieds extinct by means of public opinion. The info is on the web. I had to do the research to find it just like anyone else. Do not just believe someone else. Breed one, like I did!!!! Ask Barrie!! I am sure he knows these other Breeders and Judges. Didier Mervilde spells out the breeding components on clearflight/dutch pieds on his site under Dutch Pieds article.
My bird is considered a good example with good size and markings.

Blessings,

Jo Ann:budgie:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I have i've searched high and low All it is is a Varition of Clear Flight pied

on one forum What one person said thier older out dated book said a "frosted pied was" was a Pure White bird with no markings with a hint of blue on the lower belly and rump nothing else.. Also it said it was a composite of a Recessive pied and a Dark Eye Clear - a dark eye clear is made up of a recessive pied and a Clear flight pied

they are giving "terms" to Existing Mutations that's all they're doing Frosted is not a mutation of its own. it is just a variation of a Clear flight pied and ALL pieds have variations no 2 pieds are the same.. so in actuality there is no separate mutation called a Frosted pied - it's just a term used to describe a variation of a clear flight pied

they can call it what ever they want but its still just a clear flight pied and all they're doing is giving it a fancy name that is only going to confuse new people even more than they already are!

I've been researching this for several days- many many hours and coming up with little to no information! either what i find says "Clear flight pied AKA Frosted Pied" which means it's just a different word people called a clear flight pied.. Or It barely talks about it - no pictures to go with the tiny description and nothing says how one is actually made. I'm not saying those people are wrong I'm just saying its not fair to new people that are trying to learn when people Keep calling One mutation by 50 million different names!

Like earlier i was looking something up and kept coming across a "finnish pied" no pictures just a very lame description I couldn't make head nor tales of most of the short articles. so finally I just went and searched Finnish pied budgies Because I was tired of scratching my head and saying well what in the world is a finnish pied budgie ----- a Finnish pied budgie is none other than a RECESSIVE PIED!
 

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There is---

Hi

Did you attempt to ask any of the people I referenced. I actually got to correspond with some really neat people who not only were around back then but are here now to share the evolution of the process of identifying these birds. I worked in medical research and there is always a give and take between opinions until some one 'proves the world is really round' I try to be flexible enough to give any valid opinion a listen. I was very frustrated, but day by day people from all over the world have come forward to help me on this.

I am told that as a Frosted Pied matures, its color on the wings gradually changes to more frosting, so a very mature Frosted may be all white. Jack Frost has become lighter in the period of time -a few weeks- since the photos were posted on www.budgerigar.co.uk. There are several photos showing different angles and wing detail.

I am really enjoying watching him grow up. He is a very gentle bird and has been very easy to hand tame in a few brief training sessions. He will probably become a house bird as well as I hope a loving father. I have breeders checking around for a Lady for him to bring out the best we can in the match. Neither of us will know till the breeding comes to pass and chicks grow up, so I am open to all of the wonderful possibilities and glad to be able to participate in the process, after only a few years. I owe a lot to breeders and Geneticists like Gordon Davis, in Florida, Gene Johnson, now passed away. I would love to add to their work on these wonderful and endangered birds.

The people I named have been very forth coming so unless some one is rude I see no reason for them to treat them in any other manor. The exchange of ideas is part of the scientific process as of now there is a lot of fluidity and only a few birds being breed to confirm or deny so the more that do the work the more birds will be available to observe. the experience matures as the birds do. There is a lot more known today than forty + years ago, just like the world was once flat!! and still a lot to learn. What an adventure!!!:budgie:

Blessings,

Jo Ann:budgie:
 

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I see this as follows: A frosted pied is a clearflight pied - it even competes in that class, but to show that there's something different about these birds they describe it as Frosted. I can't see how a newbie can get confused with this name, because it is clear in most good articles that it is a clearflight pied. Whatever the case might be, your frosted pied, Jo Ann, is beautiful - wish I can get some. I'm from South Africa and I even recognise most of those people you mentioned. I also know that some welknown people try to bend the rules slightly to suit themselves - I'm not saying that they are doing it.
 

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There is---

Hi Dries,

The whole purpose for me is to get this on the net work and get as many bits of info out there so that people say They want to work with the mutation which helps to keep the birds so they will not disappear. It is both a challenge and frustrating for me. I understand. Info is hard to find, but it is there and I have posted names and web page info to help people find. No one made it easy for me a a novice. It is my responsibility to clarify what I do not understand and grow by asking questions. All of the Champion breeders have been very helpful.There is confusion that needs to be cleared up by these breeders and Judges. I do not see this as bad, I see it as growth and that can be messy. I do think Mr. Mervilde has a point to explore on the Dutch/Frosted/Clear Flight. I really do not care which way it falls as long as it is no longer in question. Stephen Fowler has added a comment while I was away at the New Orleans show. I need to ponder this new info to see how much clarity it brings. Again, it is on www.budgerigar.co.uk with the same photos you have. Thank you for appreciating Jack Frost. I really do enjoy watching him grow and change.

Do you ever travel to Europe? I bet you could find a frosted if you inquire in advance. All I did is follow the genetics rules looking for clear flight when Jack Frost hatched. So it follows that you will find someone in S.A. who is working with DEC/recessive pieds just like here in the US. When I got my first DEC they were seldom on the bench-the same with rec pieds. Interest has expanded a lot since they appeared on the Rare /Endangered bench just a couple of years ago. Getting people interested helps make them available so keep asking and looking. This is healthy!!!!

Blessings,

Jo Ann:budgie:
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I see this as follows: A frosted pied is a clearflight pied - it even competes in that class, but to show that there's something different about these birds they describe it as Frosted. I can't see how a newbie can get confused with this name, because it is clear in most good articles that it is a clearflight pied. Whatever the case might be, your frosted pied, Jo Ann, is beautiful - wish I can get some. I'm from South Africa and I even recognise most of those people you mentioned. I also know that some welknown people try to bend the rules slightly to suit themselves - I'm not saying that they are doing it.
I was only able to find maybe 5 articles and not a single one had any decent information

I just don't think any one should be giving a "name" to a mutation that already exists it is what it is It is a clear flight pied and that is all it should be called.

now if Frosted was a mutation all of its own Which it is not - because if it was it would be listed on the millions of "budgie mutation" lists in books(new books that are updated not old out dated books that have more wrong information than correct) along with every website that has a list of Budgie mutations

the WBO doesn't recognize it as a mutation of its own There isn't any about a Frosted pied on their mutation standard list and that thing is HUGE

I was just making the point that who ever started calling a Clear flight pied with different markings than the basic a Frosted Pied should of never done it - It's just a clear flight pied.

I have Dominant pieds who are not marked like the hundreds of descriptions for dominant pied say they are marked But I'm not calling them by anything other than what they are Dominant Pied.

But going by what these people are doing - Then I could Make some Fancy Name for mine and Change the name of the mutation since she's not marked like a Normal Dominant pied Maybe I'll just make her "mutation" her Name and have a whole new form of Dominant pied - So for now on any one who gets a bird Like My kaylee Won't call it a dominant pied but will call it a Kaylee Pied:rolleyes:
 

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So for now on any one who gets a bird Like My kaylee Won't call it a dominant pied but will call it a Kaylee Pied:rolleyes:
I think that would be a brilliant idea!! Like you said: there are so many different variation of the dominant pieds if you call it a Kaylee Pied one will have a better idea of how the bird looks. For me Frosted Pied is just a way to describe the bird. I don't think that anyone said that it is a new mutation - therefor it falls in the same class as a clear flight pied - because it is a clear flight.
Each one has the right to his/her own opinion. I like that bird and would love to get one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I think that would be a brilliant idea!! Like you said: there are so many different variation of the dominant pieds if you call it a Kaylee Pied one will have a better idea of how the bird looks. For me Frosted Pied is just a way to describe the bird. I don't think that anyone said that it is a new mutation - therefor it falls in the same class as a clear flight pied - because it is a clear flight.
Each one has the right to his/her own opinion. I like that bird and would love to get one.
This is true and it Should be called a Frosted Clear Flight pied - not just Frosted pied - Saying Frosted Pied is what makes people think it's a complete different mutation - It's why I went searching for it. Only to find out many hours later, it was no different than a clear flight pied
 

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It wouldn't make much of a difference to the customer though...would it? Unless of course like you they were breeding.
 

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There is---

There are so few of these birds that you are not likely to find any for sale.Some breeders may share with a friend. MY bird is not for sale to any one. However if Gordon is still alive, he will have a chick as a thank you. Have you read the info That I listed, do not shoot the messenger without checking out the message.

As I said earlier, the world was once flat. Believe as you will, My Bird is continuing in good Graces to show and win in any and all ABS/BAA Shows as the very rare bird he is. Why do you not contact the names I listed? All are WBO judges who wrote the rules you keep quoting and my bird has won on the bench under several of them here in the US. If you do not like the bird ,Breed something else and beat him on the show bench or better still become a judge and change the rules to suit yourself. Pay the price or find something else to argue about. I am going to set up my breeding room instead of nonproductive use of my time.

Dries I hope you can find at least the components. I know how expensive an import plus quarantine is!! I pray you receive a blessing like Jack Frost. I think you deserve it!!

Blessings,

Jo Ann:budgie:
 

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Well, I'm waiting for replies from some of the mentioned people and others in the business.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
and I read all of them and they were either not very good at describing it or it all led right back to them being a Clear flight pied. - it is NOT a mutation of its own

and this is from another forum But It's a quote from Nev
It is my understanding that clearflight pied, dutch pied, continental clearflight & frosted pied are all the same mutation. There can be a lot of variation in the appearance of clearflight pieds which could account for different names

The real problem is that there are too many "experts" with too many different ideas
Another member of that forum - (I just did a google search! But can't post the forum because its Only about Budgies and that's against TB rules)

other name for a dutch pied. Has quite distinctive frosting on wings in normal variety
and that's just from one page of a google search Pretty much every one I read has all went right back to it's just a Clear flight pied with different markings than a Standard clear flight pied - But like i said EVERY pied has different markings than the next one because no 2 pieds are the same.
 
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