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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Help with mutation and gender?

Hi all! I am new to this forum and would really love some help and opinions on my current clutch :) They are 5 weeks old

I have had a numerous amount of opinions on the pied baby, but would love to know what you guys think?
I am still learning about mutations, I really want to learn more :bml:

Here are my 2 babies ...

Here are the parents ...
 

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Oops I didn't see baby #2 there! It's hard to tell without more pictures, but at the moment it's looking like a male dark eyed clear.
 

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They are beautiful!

Baby 1 looks like a cobalt cinnamon single factor dominant pied. Do you have more photos of him taken in natural light? For some reason it almost looks like he's got two shades of blue on his belly.

Baby 2 I can't see his wings well enough to comment on his full mutation but I think maybe he is spangle greywing (?) cobalt. More photos of him would be helpful too. He is also male ;)

Mum is a sky blue opaline budgie, making all the boys split for opaline, and dad is a cobalt spangle budgie.

They are beautiful!
 

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Hey there, two points...neither parent is a pied, and neither is cinnamon.

I have some thoughts on these babies, but am interested in other views as I think they are unusual.
 

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Hi! :welcome: to Talk Budgies

StarlingWings and tonic (budgie mutation experts) will work out the matter of the mutations between them.
I'll just say that I think your flock is beautiful! :happy4:

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Oh, duh. :blush:

Toni is right. Baby 1 looks cinnamon but can't possibly be as she would have to be female if Dad were split. And Baby 1 is definitely male. Also-- no pied parents? Very odd. I'm thinking that perhaps the first chick is a chimera? More photos would help.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thankyou all, I thought here would be a good place to get the opinions on the babies, the pied is definitely unusual.
The pied does have 2 shades of blue, on the left (looking from front) it is sky blue and the other side has mostly cobalt/violet/grey looking colour, its spread unevenly through his chest.
The 2nd one has very light bar markings. I will get some more photos of the babies and post them soon :)
 

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More picture will be great! I agree with the pied being a half-sider/chimera, which is very special! The way the markings on the head are 'chopped off' half way across is another oddity that adds to the chimera idea.

It is quite young so I am not convinced it won't turn out to be a hen. And I think it is most likely a very heavily marked recessive pied, which are usually hens rather than cocks. It is a very odd pair of babies though!

The other chick looks to be a dark eyed clear, which would require both recessive pied and clearflight. So, maybe we have both parents split for recessive pied, and one of them being a clearflight without any obvious pied markings? Unlikely but possible! In that case the pied chick could turn out to be a clearflight/recessive pied chimera.

More pics will be great, and more as they age too! If the pied gets an iris ring it will clarify things. At the moment I am leaning towards dark eyed clear hen (if the faint markings are actually not real markings) and a skyblue and cobalt cinnamon recessive pied hen that is possibly also clearflight.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I will definitely post their progress as they grow. I really never expected to have something so different from the parents .. lol
 

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Hmmm, is the colour on the white only suffusion and the markings ghost markings or is it a very very pale dilute? I think it is to pale for a dilute and the cheek patches look white. So more likely a dec?

The pied almost looks like it is part cinnamon normal and part pied. I still lean towards recessive pied.
 

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I don't know a lot about mutations, and it's really hard to get a photo that shows the colour properly on that white one.
The sky blue colour is brightest on each side of the back and under the wings on the body.
The front looks like a pale sky blue and kind of grey looking at the same time.
The cheek patches are a light blue in the light, and looks violet out of the natural light.
On the wings, you can hardly see the markings, they are most visible on the head, but eve then, hard to see.

The other thing I should add that you can't really see in the photos for the pied one, is that on one side of his tail, now only seen from underneath, has what appears to be one or 2 darker colour tail feathers. Looks cinnamon colour.
Also a what looks like a patch of violet on the back, at the very top where the wings feathers meet in the middle.
 

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Hey guys! Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Baby #1 is a cinnamon male (which he does appear to be), then doesn't the mother also have to express with cinnamon for it to even be possible?

That aside, my guess for his classification would be "sky blue violet, recessive pied (unusual patterning), cinnamon".

Although in this picture, he almost looks to be plain sky blue on one side, and violet on the other... o_o

A mystery indeed!
 

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You're right, of course ;)

That's why we didn't originally say cinnamon, which is obviously not possible by inheritance alone.

However, mutations are called "mutations" because they first arose independently as errors in DNA replication occurred. It's very possible that this chick had one of those mutations arise independently. That would make sense, especially as he seems to possibly be a chimera, which would therefore indicate a whole host of genetic mutations present. :)
 

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It's very possible that this chick had one of those mutations arise independently. That would make sense, especially as he seems to possibly be a chimera, which would therefore indicate a whole host of genetic mutations present. :)
Well that would be very special indeed! He's gorgeous nonetheless~

I don't know if it's already been mentioned, but I believe Baby #2 could be a sky blue spangle dilute? It would be logical given the father's SF spangle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I will surely post more photos when he/she matures! :laugh:
So the cinnamon in this one is kind of like how someone first ended up with one when discovered?
We shall see if this chimera continues through after its first moult.
Would it be worth getting a DNA test done on it to confirm its gender?

I will breed this pair again at the end of the year and see what we end up with again.
 

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No point getting DNA done, it will become very clear what the gender is as it matures. If it is a hen then the cinnamon is following normal inheritance, if it is a **** then something interesting is going on. I know they have been separated form others for a couple of months, but none of the others had access to the side of their cage did they? They can be very, very sneaky!
 
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