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So the cinnamon in this one is kind of like how someone first ended up with one
Not necessarily! The cinnamon would be perfectly normal if your baby turns out to be female. But if not, logic tells us there has to be something other than typical heredity at play. :3
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
****** UPDATE *******

The cere is now turning blue ......




And we also have 2 new budgies to add to the flock <3
The 2 on the left vvv


Close up of this one :)
 

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He is beautiful! He is definitely male, and also definitely cinnamon.

I am fairly certain that he is a chimera budgie. In the very early stages of development, two separate genetic combinations came together so that he has some genes that would have been another separate budgie. Most likely, a cinnamon female (what would have been). However, because these genes fused with his own so early on, they became part of his own genes, despite not previously being able to inherit them.

This would explain the cinnamon as well as the fact that he appears to be both skyblue and cobalt.

That's my theory, anyway. ;) It's more likely that this event (despite the fact that it is, in and of itself, very rare!!) took place rather than a spontaneous mutation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
If he is chimera, wow, your theory does make sense :)
Would you be okay if I share your theory with some others?
Theres a Facebook page that I have posted my budgies in as well, and have also been trying to work out this ones mutation.
I think they would love to hear yours :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
So if he is Chimera, pretty much it should have been 1 with full wing markings and 1 with the pied wing markings?
And when I breed the pair again, I should see these mutations as seperate budgies? :laughing1:
 

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Does he still appear to have two different body colours? The idea of a chimera does seem most likely but I still can't quite see how it has made him. I can see a cinnamon female embryo merging with a pied male and the male forming the sex organs and therefore gender.

However, neither parent is a pied, so he should be a recessive pied, except they do not have blue ceres! So in theory he should be dominant pied, but you need one parent to also be one to get one.

I guess the answer is that it is not easy to see how this baby could have been formed, whether by chimera or new mutation. We just do not understand the mechanisms well enough I guess.

I would be very interesting to see what chicks it produces. You would expect to see chicks from which every bird formed the sex organs, so probably pieds rather than cinnamons. If you were able to reproduce chicks similar to the adult it would indicate a new mutation rather than a chimera.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Too confusing :laughing1:
Yep, body colour is still the same as he was before. I might plan it so I breed the parents at the same time as breeding the pied and to another so I can get all the results at the same time :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Hey all! Its CandyBudgie here again, I know its been a while since I have posted.
Hoping some of you remember my cinnamon boy/girl? :blue pied:
I have some interesting news about him! But first to help you refresh, here is some photos :) New ones at the bottom.
:whois:

We needed this time to watch this boy grow up and see if anything changes as he matured.
He is now 7 months old. The sibling is a female, and a dilute.

This is his mum


This is his dad


This is my boy now


Also, I have written out a breeding timeline, which I can post if wanted, just proves that there is no possible chance at all the any other budgie is the parent. I only breed one pair at a time in a breeding cage away from the rest.
New budgies were bought after releasing the parents and babies back to the aviary.

For those interested, I have recently posted this boy in a new group,
referred to be another budgie fan. There are some real crazy awesome
experts there, and one in particular who has given me a great answer
as to what is going on with this budgie.

I will post this in a seperate comment below :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Heres the response from one expert...


Well here goes with another POSSIBLE explanation. The bird is a chimera with truly screwed up chromosomes. One "half" of the bird is a Cinnamon Blue hen (possible violet sky or cobalt as the father looks either violet sky or cobalt) and the other half is a blue series single factor Spangle ****(colour unknown). So it is transgender. Now the other interesting part is that the two chromosomes which should contain one Spangle allele and one non-spangle allele (of a single factor spangle) has one chromosome completely missing or a portion of it missing at the Spangle locus ending up with one spangle allele and nothing matched to it. This unusual instance means that the one Spangle allele has no Normal allele to partly counteract it and so the Spangle allele works at full efficiency making the bird look like a double factor Spangle (i.e. all white) and not a single factor Spangle. One half of the bird is Cinnamon Blue female (all the bits with brown markings and blue body colour) and the other half of the bird is a special single factor Spangle that appears like a Double factor Spangle (all the white bits). The cere is blue (male) because its sits in the middle of a male "DF" Spangle patch. There is actually no pied involved. Looking at the parents the violet sky/cobalt and the cinnamon and the spangle all comes from the father (i.e. two different sperm cells). The hen only supplied blue and of course screwed up the fertilisation process and early embryo development). Neither parent is pied. Thats one possible explanation, there may be others.


So my choices now are to hopefully find an avian vet with a great knowledge of budgies and their mutations and find out if it really is transgender and see if it has both reproductive organs. If it does, then I will not be able to breed with him. But will remain one VERY special budgie!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
He has always had black eyes.
This is the only one that shows his eyes at this age, not a clear pic I know, I didn't take too many photos when they were this young.
 

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He has always had black eyes.
This is the only one that shows his eyes at this age, not a clear pic I know, I didn't take too many photos when they were this young.
Cinnamon have plum eyes. As a chick this would had been very noticeable especially against a chick with black eyes.

Do we know the grandparents of this chick?

If the sibling has a form of dilution then it could be that he is not cinnamon at all but the dilution has made him appear that way. I would also say there is recessive pied in there which would mean that the parents are split for recessive pied. I can't see any iris rings in the pictures. Though the cere does not match that of recessive pied it is possible he is a halfsider or has halfsider traits and the other half is more dominant over the cere colour.

You could breed the parents again to see if you produce another chick the same which would indicate it is a mutation rather than a halfsider. Or you could try breeding the chick when he is old enough to see if he can produce offspring.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
I never noticed plum colour eyes, always been black. They both have iris rings.
The mum escaped the aviary not long after I put them all in the aviary. So a re-breed is out of the question unfortunately :(
All the other photos of this baby have been posted earlier in this thread :)
 
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