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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi! I've done tons of research on this including talking to Mike Rankin, but still have question/confusions!

I think this is hard because a) people see color different b) pics tend to take color out. There not 'true.'

So this is a chart (pic #1) of different birds carrying violet. The way I understand it is really any budgie can carry it sometimes it's harder to tell though. Say my Tyrus to me he looks cobalt, but I do know one of his parents was violet and can see some violet on him even though in photos it's hard to tell. Nev said he may look cobalt, but he could infact be skyblue violet. Which I get for the most part.

But some of those other birds look like different variations of blue to me. They are either a cobalt or sky based bird with either single or double factor violet and that makes them different colored blues?

To me pic #2-4 are violet birds and if you look at my Tango he's violet. So how would you really know if you have a single factor bird or double. This would have to be done by breeding correct? What do you consider a dark factor/single factor budgie to look like?

Please help and pics help. :) Thank you Thank you!
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I just noticed in the random photo bar that there was an exact pic of photo #2 but a dark blue with hues of violet so maybe this photo was stolen and photoshoped so maybe it's not really the true color of the photo :( This is confusing...
 

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This is from ***************

"If a budgie has a violet factor, you may or may not know it. True violet only shows up on cobalt budgies (white-based budgies with one dark factor) or, if double factor, on sky blue budgies(white-based budgies with no dark factor). It is very hard to tell if yellow-based budgies carry a violet factor. The violet usually darkens the green of the body feathers similarly to a dark factor. Sometimes, if you look closely, a violet tinge will be visible on the body feathers near the feet and vent of a green budgie with violet factor. Sky blue budgies with one violet factor will have a violet tinge, especially in the body feathers near the feet, and sometimes look darker than a normal sky blue. It is very difficult to detect violet factor in mauve budgies."

I'm not totally sure what you're asking, but from the above I'd say that violet only truly shows up in a sky blue if it's double factor, and if the budgie is a cobalt it could be either single or double factor. I think the easiest way would be knowing the parents and whether or not they carry/have violet.
 

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Just for your information Teasha the second pic is one of my birds. The color in the photo is photoshoped(altered). I was asking Nev if a violet yellow face of this bright coloration could be bred. The answer was NO the yellow would discolor the violet. I think getting information and photo reference is so hard because the photos never show the true coloration of violet birds. I always have to go into photoshop and correct the color. Even then it's not always the same color. Here is a photo showing the true colorations of Kingsley He is a normal DF violet. On the right.

 

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Hi! I've done tons of research on this including talking to Mike Rankin, but still have question/confusions! Oooh i would love to talk to mike rankin... should get around to that some day...

I think this is hard because a) people see color different b) pics tend to take color out. There not 'true.' Pictures rarely show the true colour of violets unfortunately.

So this is a chart (pic #1) of different birds carrying violet. If you look closely at that chart, it is incorrect. I would disagree with the labels he has placed on some birds as SF or DF - look and notice he has used the exact same picture of the exact same bird for 'different' violets. A bit misleading unfortunately although i do remember altering and correcting his chart somewhere.
The way I understand it is really any budgie can carry it sometimes it's harder to tell though.This is certainly true. I have augren, a YF2 opaline sky blue (zero dark factor) and tuatha, an opaline light grey (zero dark factor). they produced 12 chicks last year, all sky blues and light greys except for one - a violet sky blue. WHAT? She was clearly different from her sky blue siblings, and clearly not a cobalt - going by feather type and tail feather colouration. The violet was clearly evident from her early pin feathers and I thought 'no way' but as she feathered up it was very clear she was a SF violet sky blue and appears like a light coloured cobalt. She is also the biggest and best hen they produced that year :D I know the violet didnt come from augren, so it must be present in tuatha, but it doesnt show up very well amid the grey.
Say my Tyrus to me he looks cobalt, but I do know one of his parents was violet and can see some violet on him even though in photos it's hard to tell. Nev said he may look cobalt, but he could infact be skyblue violet. Which I get for the most part. Two ways you can help differentiate - the feather 'scaling' on cobalts is very clear to see. It can be present in some sky blues, but it is no-where near as well defined. If you observe a cobalts body feathers, you will notice each blue chest/belly feather is blue, but the very tip is laced with white frilling. This white frill, on every feather combines to give the bird the appearance of blue fish scales. Thats one way to tell the difference between a sky blue SF or DF violet and a normal or SF violet cobalt. The other main difference is that sky blues have teal or light blue tail feathers, cobalts have navy blue tail feathers, much darker.

But some of those other birds look like different variations of blue to me. They are either a cobalt or sky based bird with either single or double factor violet and that makes them different colored blues?see above

To me pic #2-4 are violet birds and if you look at my Tango he's violet. So how would you really know if you have a single factor bird or double. This would have to be done by breeding correct? What do you consider a dark factor/single factor budgie to look like? I'll have to try and get some photos for you. I have four single factor violet cobalts, one double factor violet cobalt, a single factor violet sky blue, and one double factor violet sky blue. For interest I have a normal grey, tuatha who is apparently a very poorly coloured violet grey, and another young chap who is a violet grey - the son of a SF violet cobalt and a light grey hen from earlier this year. I have one assignment to do but after that i will have time to take pics and help you out there :p

Please help and pics help. :) Thank you Thank you!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I just noticed in the random photo bar that there was an exact pic of photo #2 but a dark blue with hues of violet so maybe this photo was stolen and photoshoped so maybe it's not really the true color of the photo :( This is confusing...
This is from ***************

"If a budgie has a violet factor, you may or may not know it. True violet only shows up on cobalt budgies (white-based budgies with one dark factor) or, if double factor, on sky blue budgies(white-based budgies with no dark factor) Not true at all, i have birds that clearly disprove that statement, as well as other violet articles that debunk this myth. It is very hard to tell if yellow-based budgies carry a violet factor. The violet usually darkens the green of the body feathers similarly to a dark factor. Sometimes, if you look closely, a violet tinge will be visible on the body feathers near the feet and vent of a green budgie with violet factor Understandable, but not true if anyone has the insight to check for dark factor feather scaling and the colour of tails.. Sky blue budgies with one violet factor will have a violet tinge, especially in the body feathers near the feet, and sometimes look darker than a normal sky blue. It is very difficult to detect violet factor in mauve budgies. Also not entirely true, mauve is a very dusky colour, almost like a blue black. Violet makes a very noticeable change in this colouration, bring it closer to a blue tinge once more, although it produces a very deep musky coloured violet. I would say it is harder to identify in greys than mauves."

I'm not totally sure what you're asking, but from the above I'd say that violet only truly shows up in a sky blue if it's double factor, and if the budgie is a cobalt it could be either single or double factor. I think the easiest way would be knowing the parents and whether or not they carry/have violet.
Breeding violets requires an eye that really only comes with time and experience, which im certain mike rankin would agree with. Violet is a tricky thing to note as there are other factors that can affect its expression beyond the fact that the violet genes expression varies from bird to bird before you even factor in other variables that affect colour vibrancy and expression in birds.
 

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Im hopeless at detectin violet..only if its really noticable

Yet i still try and guess the violet factor :rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Violets and factors

Hi I hope I did this quoting and text coloring correct.

Hi! I've done tons of research on this including talking to Mike Rankin, but still have question/confusions! Oooh i would love to talk to mike rankin... should get around to that some day...

I think this is hard because a) people see color different b) pics tend to take color out. There not 'true.' Pictures rarely show the true colour of violets unfortunately. So where would I be able to see a photo of a true violet? Do you know?

So this is a chart (pic #1) of different birds carrying violet. If you look closely at that chart, it is incorrect. I would disagree with the labels he has placed on some birds as SF or DF - look and notice he has used the exact same picture of the exact same bird for 'different' violets. A bit misleading unfortunately although i do remember altering and correcting his chart somewhere.Wow you have a keen eye! I didn't notice that. Any chance you would post that chart corrected for the rest of us?
The way I understand it is really any budgie can carry it sometimes it's harder to tell though.This is certainly true. I have augren, a YF2 opaline sky blue (zero dark factor) and tuatha, an opaline light grey (zero dark factor). they produced 12 chicks last year, all sky blues and light greys except for one - a violet sky blue. WHAT? She was clearly different from her sky blue siblings, and clearly not a cobalt - going by feather type and tail feather colouration. The violet was clearly evident from her early pin feathers and I thought 'no way' but as she feathered up it was very clear she was a SF violet sky blue and appears like a light coloured cobalt. She is also the biggest and best hen they produced that year I know the violet didnt come from augren, so it must be present in tuatha, but it doesnt show up very well amid the grey.
So basically you can tell if it's zero, one or two dark factors by how dark they are? I thought you needed to breed them. Of course I do remember seeing a chart somewhere that told which colored birds had which dark factors and based upon which you bred together, what you would end up with.
Say my Tyrus to me he looks cobalt, but I do know one of his parents was violet and can see some violet on him even though in photos it's hard to tell. Nev said he may look cobalt, but he could infact be skyblue violet. Which I get for the most part. Two ways you can help differentiate - the feather 'scaling' on cobalts is very clear to see. It can be present in some sky blues, but it is no-where near as well defined. If you observe a cobalts body feathers, you will notice each blue chest/belly feather is blue, but the very tip is laced with white frilling. This white frill, on every feather combines to give the bird the appearance of blue fish scales. Thats one way to tell the difference between a sky blue SF or DF violet and a normal or SF violet cobalt. The other main difference is that sky blues have teal or light blue tail feathers, cobalts have navy blue tail feathers, much darker.This I remember, the tail feathers that is. The fish scaling is new, wow that's amazing. So the way I take it is cobalt is the dull light blue and skyblue is a little darker and brighter.

To me pic #2-4 are violet birds and if you look at my Tango he's violet. So how would you really know if you have a single factor bird or double. This would have to be done by breeding correct? What do you consider a dark factor/single factor budgie to look like? I'll have to try and get some photos for you. I have four single factor violet cobalts, one double factor violet cobalt, a single factor violet sky blue, and one double factor violet sky blue. For interest I have a normal grey, tuatha who is apparently a very poorly coloured violet grey, and another young chap who is a violet grey - the son of a SF violet cobalt and a light grey hen from earlier this year. I have one assignment to do but after that i will have time to take pics and help you out there That would be awesome. I would be very appreciative of that. Are you trying to breed DF violets? Just curious :)

Please help and pics help. Thank you Thank you!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I just noticed in the random photo bar that there was an exact pic of photo #2 but a dark blue with hues of violet so maybe this photo was stolen and photoshoped so maybe it's not really the true color of the photo This is confusing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckiC
This is from ***************

"If a budgie has a violet factor, you may or may not know it. True violet only shows up on cobalt budgies (white-based budgies with one dark factor) or, if double factor, on sky blue budgies(white-based budgies with no dark factor) Not true at all, i have birds that clearly disprove that statement, as well as other violet articles that debunk this myth. I have a few birds with spots of violet on them, so if they visually have any violet does that mean they carry violet or do you need to look for the tail coloring as well?It is very hard to tell if yellow-based budgies carry a violet factor. The violet usually darkens the green of the body feathers similarly to a dark factor. Sometimes, if you look closely, a violet tinge will be visible on the body feathers near the feet and vent of a green budgie with violet factor Understandable, but not true if anyone has the insight to check for dark factor feather scaling and the colour of tails.. Sky blue budgies with one violet factor will have a violet tinge, especially in the body feathers near the feet, and sometimes look darker than a normal sky blue. By dark factor feather scaling are you refering to the fish scales similar to the cobalt? Also it's really hard to know what a normal skyblue or cobalt looks like because of the pictures being off plus there's no good breeders around. Does anyone know where I can find accurate pics?It is very difficult to detect violet factor in mauve budgies. Also not entirely true, mauve is a very dusky colour, almost like a blue black. Violet makes a very noticeable change in this colouration, bring it closer to a blue tinge once more, although it produces a very deep musky coloured violet. I would say it is harder to identify in greys than mauves."

I'm not totally sure what you're asking, but from the above I'd say that violet only truly shows up in a sky blue if it's double factor, and if the budgie is a cobalt it could be either single or double factor. I think the easiest way would be knowing the parents and whether or not they carry/have violet.

Breeding violets requires an eye that really only comes with time and experience, which im certain mike rankin would agree with. Violet is a tricky thing to note as there are other factors that can affect its expression beyond the fact that the violet genes expression varies from bird to bird before you even factor in other variables that affect colour vibrancy and expression in birds.
Yes I agree and getting accurate information I think is the first step. I love birds and would love to be able to breed df violets but I also think this is extremley hard because if it was easy alot more people would have them :) Any info or pictures would be much appreciated as I want to learn as much as possible. Thank you
 

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I just noticed in the random photo bar that there was an exact pic of photo #2 but a dark blue with hues of violet so maybe this photo was stolen and photoshoped so maybe it's not really the true color of the photo This is confusing...
Ok to make my last post clearer. I altered one of my own photos your #2 photo is photoshoped it's a face it isn't real. I was asking Nev if a bright violet could have gold face as well. The fake photo made it easer for Nev to know what color I was talking about. The answer was no. This coloration can't exist. Here is the real coloration of Kingsley. He is a normal DF violet.

FAKE

REAL

DF violet next to a Sky blue
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I understood after you said it. I was thinking something off the wall before that. Dork! I mean me :rolleyes:So what color is Kingsley a cobalt df violet? He is beautiful.
 

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Ok i'll try clarify a bit (looks like im gonna have to make a violet sticky at some point lol) -

Without even mentioning violet:

Sky blue (zero dark factor) has a bright body pale blue body colour, with fine feathering and a light blue or 'teal' coloured tail.

Cobalts (one dark factor) have a deeper but often duller blue, with coarser feathering. A clearly identifiable feature is the 'fish scaling' effect that is present in cobalts due to the white frilling on the end of the body feathers, especially the chest. Their tails are navy blue or dark deep blue.

This is how you can tell if you have a sky blue or a cobalt.

With normal violet expression (as in it expresses the violet colour well and evenly) you can expect a single factor violet sky blue to easily stand out against its normal sky blue neighbour, and it may even look like a poorly coloured cobalt (except the colour would be brighter if not as deep, as cobalts have a deeper duller colour remember?). Double factor violet sky blue have a deep cobalt colouring, but it is VERY noticeably purple, and the feathering is very vibrant. In my opinion the double factor sky blue is a very beautiful bird, perhaps better looking than the DF violet cobalt, which although it has a deeper purple it often lacks the vibrancy and silkiness of the sky blue DF violet.

The problem with SF cobalts is that NORMAL cobalts can very in their depth of colour - you can have cobalts that look like dark coloured sky blues, and cobalts that have a deep navy blue colour. Thus, with the addition of a single violet factor, you can make a poorly coloured cobalt look like a nicely coloured cobalt and fail to notice it is a violet cobalt with poor colour. You tend to see more purple in a SF violet cobalt then you would in a SF violet sky blue as there is simply more colour - this is why it is (incorrectly) said that only "double factor violet sky blues and single factor violet cobalts are visual violets" because they refer to how 'obviously' purple the bird appears. However, anyone with an eye for violets can see a well coloured SF violet sky blue is superior in colour to a normal sky blue and has an obvious amount of violet to its colour. DF violet cobalts are the creme of the purple crop, having the full force of violet added to the depth of colour present with a single dark factor. These are gorgeous birds to behold, although they lack the 'silky finesse' i mentioned about the sky blue feathering. Of course, show breeders also know that there are different types of feathering that can be bred into birds that can improve the look of both sky blues and cobalts, so a dedicated breeder can produce some truly stunning violets of either variety.

Furthermore, I am aware of and have seen myself birds possessing what mike rankin refers to (without directly quoting) as the brightness factor. A gene of some sort that produces an almost sparkly quality to feathering. This is very desirable in violets - not to mention it would do well to breed it through all your birds).

So i hope this helps somewhat. First forget violet, and try to visually ascertain the dark factor status of your bird. Then try and pair them sky blues to sky blues and cobalts to cobalts to measure up and compare their colouring. Keep in mind there are variations in NORMAL colouration without violet factors. Yes that is annoying, but anything like this takes time and practice. The last thing to do would be to breed a suspected violet sky blue to a KNOWN pure sky blue and observe the babies. Any cobalts and you know you didnt have a violet sky blue on your hands. But if you only produce sky blues, and one starts coming through with violet pin feathers (which is when its most noticeable compared to its siblings) then you have your answer. A suspected violet cobalt should also be paired to a pure sky blue, and chicks will range from sky blues, violet sky blues, cobalts and violet cobalts. A trickier pairing, but none-the-less a worthy exercise.
 

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DF violet next to a Sky blue
Can you see here what i was referring to about the tails? Forget violet for a second - look at the tails. Here you obviously have a sky blue and a cobalt. Having said that, going by the picture i would only say the cobalt is a SF violet. But i know myself that cameras dont always show the true depth of violet, so i can only rely on what BB11 says.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Ok! That does help tons. Any chance though you would put up some pics for fun? Just to see. Thank you so much for all ur patience and help! :)
 

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Can you give examples ( e.g pics) of this 'scaling' please Dean. So i will understand it more. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Oh thank you! It's 12 pages that should have alot of info in it! I really should sign up with them. I really love this forum everyone is so friendly and helpful, going above and beyond! Really you guys are awesome!!! Hey maybe we could post photos and have a practice session on labeling some mutations?
 
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